Mirco (00:00) Every time you feel uncomfortable on something, it that you're growing. So you have to try to put yourself in an uncomfortable position and try to do it the maximum in order to be comfortable. Okay, so this means that you're growing. You're learning something that before you weren't able to do or you are also create the networks with people that before you weren't able to reach. ICEO Technologies (00:21) Mirco Patroncini is the Chief Technology Officer of [LastMinute.com](http://lastminute.com/), a publicly traded company in the travel tech industry with over 1,400 employees. Mirco (00:31) As a CTO, I know that I reach my goal when I go into the office and I'm able to do nothing, meaning that everything is working smoothly. Security for sure is now one of the main topics. So the more you are trying to get more secure and more the hackers, let's say the frauds want to find a way to breach your systems. So the ones that are able to manage the AI in the right way will be the ones with the future. ICEO Technologies (00:57) Mirco has held leadership positions in several corporates like the $1.2 billion Yux MetaPorter. And now, as CTO of Last Minute, he drives the tech strategy that fuels innovation, reinforcing Last Minute's position as a global reference in travel technology. ⁓ Mirco (01:12) I would have embraced the unknown earlier, let's say in this way, because when every time you're changing, you are moving from something you know, your comfort zone, to something that you don't know. And when I was at the beginning, younger, I tried but was a bit more scared to do a big jump. I wanted, I want to have done it earlier because I see... Diego Calligaro (01:32) Hi Mirco very glad to have you here. How are you? Mirco Patroncini (01:33) I I'm fine Diego, I'm really happy to be here with you. Thanks. Diego Calligaro (01:37) Perfect. So Mirco, it's been a pleasure having you here. It's also been great to speak with you recently in Barcelona when you were here. So very glad to have you here and discuss, a deep discussion about your background and your role as a CTO. As always, I like to start with a question about you in terms of motivation as well and the drive that you have as well as a leader. So if you can share with us directly what drives you as a leader and keeps you motivated. Mirco Patroncini (02:13) Thanks for the question. Let me say this question is quite easy for me to answer. What is driving me is just one thing, it's people. We spoke also in Barcelona about people, no. And because I think that tools, technology are just nothing without the right people, the right team, the right mindset around the... the technology. So I never seen in my 20 years, more than 20 years careers that technology itself is able to bring an impact in the world. No, you have, need the right people. Why I love it. I love manager, leading people because they are not predictable. They are not like systems that you are able to determine something, but with people you are not. So this is the magic I see in my role. I'm guided also by some strong values, like I'm a strong, empathic person. So, is one of my most important values. I also follow respect for the people, transparency, creativity. Those are, and also pragmatism. I'm quite grounded person, so I want really to see things happen, not just speaking about things. So those are my anchors. Because I want to build an environment where the people can really grow, move fast, be real. So we want to do things that matter. This is what is driving and motivates me on day by day. Diego Calligaro (03:36) And then thanks for sharing Mirco. I'm also interested when it comes to your background as well. I know that you have a very diverse background. I know you work as a plumber, you built your company, you work also door to door, you were fixing computer at the beginning. So you have many diverse experiences. If you can briefly go through them, like, you know, but mainly focusing on why and how these experiences shaped you as a leader. be great. Mirco Patroncini (04:05) Hey, let me start saying that my part was not linear as you are saying, but not because I'm crazy. Let's say I grew up with my mom. We were alone and we were not, let's say, rich and we, had to work and to participate to the financial. economy in the nowhere else. So the point is I had to work while I was studying. So I've got a computer science background, just to say that I'm not starting from that being a plumber to become a CTO. But All these jobs I've done for needs brings me some experience, different one. So when I was a plumber, I understand then when you're fixing a pipe that is... and not working, there's no shortcuts. No, you have to do that when pragmatism do stuff now, not tomorrow, not later, not speaks about which is the best pipe. No, sometimes there are philosophical discussion when we are speaking about technology, you which is the best style, which is the best way to do in that occasion, you have to fix it. That that's all. So this is my strength. I will say many different experiences brings me where I am. I'm where I'm quite a strong responsible person. I say I feel the company like it's company and This is also due to my experiences. When you are knocking to the door, because if I'm not wrong, Diego, you said that you did door to door sales. know, you have also to... Those are the first time you are experiencing the failure, because the rejection of the people say, no, I don't want it. And you are explaining and trying to say something. And you're so there saying, I learned the rejection, the failures and that you cannot say, I failed and tomorrow I will not knock to any other doors. No tomorrow I have to knock to more doors than, than today. So I tried to take all this kind of experiences. and use them in my role, my current role. I want to the same mindset. I'm still keeping the same style. As I said at the beginning, I'm a grounded person. I want to stay practical, move fast. Understand when we fade on something and be able to change faster. So I love changing. This is one of my strongest part. I love the change. Usually people are scared about changes. guess changes is the life. So you feel alive when you are changing more, but most on top of everything, as I said at the beginning, I want always, always stay close to the people. Just to tell you in the office, I don't have my office. So I'm the open space together with the people. I'm a digital, let's say, nomad around the office because I've not seated in the same place every day. So I'm changing around and working, working around the company and sitting down to many different people. This is, I guess, coming from my past experiences. Diego Calligaro (06:58) Amazing. Yes, I can really empathize with you because I had as well so many diverse experiences and even if they're so varied, they always bring something on what you do and yourself. And when we were speaking, you were also saying that when you became CTO, it also felt like a jump in a way to become a CTO, like something that you would expect, like a jump was quite big from where you were before. Can you walk us through this perspective of the jump and then step into this new world? Mirco Patroncini (07:24) Thank Absolutely. I also said the same in my last techolance I in the company. I thought at the beginning it was easier, this job, because I was managing people, I'm managing people more than 20 years, as I said at the beginning. But the big jump, the big leap I had with the city overall is not in terms of technology because technology I've got, technology in the background, I'm more a curious person so I'm looking everything online, doing a lot of study around innovation, technology. The main part is the mindset that has to change. Because as I said, I'm a practical person. So I was used to do stuff in first person many times and you are moving from doing stuff yourself to enable others to do better than you. So it's a switch that you have to do when you are a CTO because you have to lead the vision, the strategy, work with the business, and you have to enable the others to understand what they have to do with clarity. This is the main change. I would say you have to think long-term, not short-term. It's also complex working with the decision. You have to make decision. We always did decisions, but sometimes you have to do decision fast without all the data you need to make that decision. Let me say in a sentence that I was thinking in those days that is less to being the smartest in the room, but he's trying to build the right room. No. I don't want to be felt as the boss of them. want to feel like a colleague. So this is my point. We have to create something together. And this is the complex part in the new role. Diego Calligaro (09:11) And can you give us an example, for example, of one of these difficult decisions that you had to take as a CTO? Mirco Patroncini (09:18) Well, let me say, speaking about decision, as said, we are always making decision in our life, no? So making decision itself is simple. The problem, as I said, is when you have to make the decision faster without the data. That's why usually I rely a lot on my teams. So teams is helping me to make the fast decision. Because I always think that it's better wrong decision now than the perfect one in three months, four months. We are in a dynamic, fast place where we don't have time in order to stay there and wasting many months in order to make a decision. So making decision is the easiest part. Let's say the complex part is making the right one. with the information you have gotten, sometimes you don't have the right information or you don't have the time to collect the information you need in order to make the fast decision. One example of tough decision is always when you have to understand it's time to stop something that the people is working on. This is mostly the complex one because recently we closed, for example, a tech project we were working on for eight months. We saw that the expected results were not coming and you have to go to the people and guys, it's time to close it. It's not easy to go to someone and say, okay, you work on something for eight months and now we want to close that project because we know they put all their energy on that part. But part of the leadership is also understanding when it's time to move the focus from something that doesn't matter to something that matters more, no? This is part of the leadership. The point is, explain with clarity to the people why and try to keep the motivation really high. Because that's the point. The motivation is quite fragile. So you need always to explain quite specifically why you are doing something. Not just, I decided to do this and that's all. Diego Calligaro (11:07) Okay, so to keep people motivated, what approach do use? You explain the why, what else? Mirco Patroncini (11:15) Usually all this kind of decision, as I said, I've taken together. So is that a driven? Most of the decision is not because I've got the feeling of a project that is not working. So we usually work on business cases. are. reviewing the business cases after the pilot or the MVP we are doing. And we are trying to see if the numbers we thought that there were the forecasted one, right or not. And usually the decision should be made by, by the by data. So the point is data are the driver. And most of the time people understand quite better numbers than to the decision made with feelings, no? Diego Calligaro (11:53) And if you can walk us through your day to day, if you pick an example of your day on how it looks like. Of course, there's the technical part, but a of people management. Walk us through this example. Mirco Patroncini (12:06) Yes. Let me say this is the big question. So people say, but what is it you is doing every day? Because you developers is developing. See the what is doing now my my my role is going far beyond the technology right now. So I have to set the direction of technology, making decisions. We said what we have to invest on working closer to the business, the product, try to enable the business with the technology. Sometimes business doesn't know what the technology can do for them and you should be the one that predicts what they could need and you have to go there and say, with this technology you can do this. And when you don't know that I'm here to enable you. This is one part of the job, setting the context, sharing the context and also the vision to the teams in order to give them the opportunity to make the right decision, the smart decision you need, because I don't want that every decision go through the CTO, you need the teams quite autonomous and able to make the right decision when it's needed. Another big part is around the culture growing others. As I said, you need to enable others to do stuff, to make decisions. So I'm growing leaders, I'm shaping teams, so organization part. And also we are trying to create the space for innovation. Innovation in Las Minas is not, let's say, just allowed. It's something that I'm expecting every day. Something I said always to my team is we are not here to maintain what we've got. We are here to improve. what we have. So the point is innovation is something I really believe we have to do on daily basis that that's the most important part. So my job let's say it's also to keep the motivation high as I at the beginning so try to remove the blockers, try to understand the people, solving conflicts so there are every day there are many many many things. Diego Calligaro (14:05) And that ends this. Mirco Patroncini (14:05) I remember, sorry, I remember one of my former bosses in one of the company worked on, Uxnet Apport, he was saying, as a CTO, I know that I reach my goal when I go into the office and I'm able to do nothing, meaning that everything is working smooth. Diego Calligaro (14:22) That's the ideal scenario. Yeah. Of course, means that you have done a good job before to prepare and get there. looking at just touching that point that we're talking about innovation. So you said that it's very important for you. Tell us maybe how you foster that culture of innovation and also how you balance that. Mirco Patroncini (14:24) Ideal scenario, yes. Yeah. Diego Calligaro (14:41) the necessity to really look for groundbreaking ideas, but at the same time, the need for reliability within the system that need to manage millions of users. Mirco Patroncini (14:50) Good question. Good question. As I say, innovation and reliability are not the opposite stuff. So you have to run both. There are different rules. So there is for the reliability, there is for the innovation. So you have to give the teams the opportunity to test, try innovating in the safe environments. That's the first important point, but also failing fast. So you need to test and validate an idea and you should be able to say, okay, this idea is working, okay, let's go in production with it, or no, this idea is not working, you have to trash it, but this kind of cycle should be quite fast, let's say. Let's mean that we are building this culture a lot, just to give you some numbers, because I numbers is always something interesting. are doing a lot of change every month. are doing 1,200 change a month in our production systems. Those are just the production changes. That's to say, how many changes we are doing and how we are fostering this kind of innovation in the technology. We created what we are calling Friday. It's project. say it is not a project. It's a way of working. Every Friday morning, four hours every Friday, everyone in the company can work on innovation, training, deep working. on what the team decided to work on in order to create this kind of culture. We have got many things we are using now in production that has been developed during the Friday from ideas coming from the people. So it's a big investment if you are thinking we are more or less one. thousand seven hundred people in the company so if you are thinking four hours for each of them every Friday is really huge investment but it was every penny that we are spending on it because we see people really engaged commit to do something so We are really strong focus on innovation and we are able to keep the reliability. We are doing lot of heavy testing on small portion of customer. We are testing on staging or in a, let's say, protected environment. even if you are failing, we are trying to protect our core business to be impacted and our customer can rely on this reliability. Diego Calligaro (17:03) And everybody from the company, like customer service, sales, anybody can work on it and how he actually works the process. So it's a brainstorming and then they give ideas. Mirco Patroncini (17:15) Each different director of the area can manage in their own area some specific activities. It could be hackathons, could be specific topics that we want to work on. Or sometimes people need also to do trainings by their own, so individual trainings. So it's not every Friday the same. Now, as you can imagine, we are working a lot on AI on Friday because many teams are quite... happy to work on AI so there are many people experimenting and testing. So each Friday is different and is managed by directors and each team itself. For sure we are driving the needs of the company because as you know, a bit of AI is always welcomed when we are giving this kind of opportunity. But training the people, growing them is important and I guess the Friday is a good initiative. Diego Calligaro (18:07) It's a really great project. And can you give an example maybe of some idea coming from different departments that have been implemented successfully? Mirco Patroncini (18:17) There are many ideas, say I cannot go so much into details, but there are agentic AI stuff. We did also some workflow manager that we were not having before. We had also observability layers, so like how to focus some... disruption in production made by the teams during the Friday. We have got automation, many projects are around automation. So how to remove repetitive tasks. So people using all AI or machine learning, and even also standard automation to bring in production something that can help them along the path. So. There are many ideas, some of them are just MVP, some others are already in production. So I can't go so much into details in order to do not. Diego Calligaro (19:11) Of course. And then maybe talking about the role of CTO, of course, involved as well, having, let's say, fears around maybe technical fears could be a massive system outage or a security breach, but also non-technical fears, maybe a market shift or other problems as well. ⁓ What would you say are the top Mirco Patroncini (19:23) Yeah. Yes. Yes. Diego Calligaro (19:35) fears, let's say that you have a CTO when it comes to technical and non-technical ones. Mirco Patroncini (19:39) But let's say technically I think we have got a great team. security for sure is now one of the main topics. So the more you are trying to get more secure and more the hackers, or let's say the frauds want to find a way. to bridge your systems. So security and the fraud is the most, let's say, concern we have got in terms of technology. I would say systems are quite reliable. We are completely on cloud now, many different availability zones. So it's complex for us to have a really huge outage in terms of systems. We have got everything automated with the auto scaling. So from a system point of view, I can tell you we are quite in a good shape. In terms of security, we are working really hard in order to protect even more every day our customer data and protect our systems. As you know... This is a day to day job you have to do because more you are smarter and more they are becoming smarter in order to find your data. It's like with the, you're changing your door in order to not have the teeth, but they are finding all the way to open the new door, So you have always to be, pay a lot of attention on security, security, GDPR, compliance. all the data of your customers. So this is where we are really investing a lot in terms of energy right now. In terms of not technical things. The culture is the most important one. We have seen after the pandemic a change also in the way of working in terms of remote working, hybrid environment. When you are far from the people, you are losing a bit the connection. You're not feeling more to belong into some company. So there were a period where people are changing just to matter to change the company, no? Because working remotely with one company was the same that working remotely for another one. they never seen their colleagues during the pandemic. Okay, we have to work a lot on the cultural part because as I said at the beginning, you need people. We still need leaders that are able to manage and work with people. So if we are not able to create a good culture, For sure, we can have the best system, as I said before, we are not able to reach the... to make the impact we want to make. So we have to work hard and the culture is not something you can do one day and the other not. Every day you have to work on it. Diego Calligaro (22:04) And you were speaking about automation here. So if you look at the automating through AI, through other system, of course, you are doing a lot of this and can be increased significantly. But what do you see are like the one activity or the main activities that cannot be automated? Mirco Patroncini (22:11) Yes. Okay, let me say, when we're speaking AI, mostly people are referring to AI with the generative AI. Reality AI is a bigger word. Let's say, even if we are in a world where AI can do everything, at least on paper, in the reality, we have seen that when you're selling travels, our cases, travel is something that is empathic, no? You need that to... to give the customer the feeling to be safe, no? On their travel, because you are selling a dream, you are selling, you're not just selling, I don't know, a smartphone, no? You are selling something that people usually do once, twice a year. They want to go there to rest, to have fun, so. Yeah, AI and technology is not enough. You need to have the right people understanding the needs of the customer and understanding what they want and to be able to support them as fast as possible. So while the upper funnel could be automated, could be AI driven, so engagement, shopping. When we are coming on the bottom part of the funnel, like fulfillment, part of the customer service also you still need people you still need empathy you still need someone that is able to add the customer is not just a process people doesn't want to feel just processed but they should be feel listened by by the company so this is where we are working a lot feeling the customer not alone no but we are there as a person not with just an AI process that can help them. I don't know, I'm quite, I love to have chat bots or agents that help customers for sure this is the future but let me say speaking with people sometimes is needed, no? Diego Calligaro (24:13) And we're touching here more about trends as well that you see moving forward. What would you say are the main trends in the industry that you're seeing coming up? Mirco Patroncini (24:23) If you're speaking about technology, generally speaking on trend on travel industries, for sure, personalization is the most important one. It's not something new, but right now in the travel, this is still evolving a lot. Let me say that people doesn't want to be more anymore, clusterized. So. I was reading a book where we say that the average is a discontinuity. We cannot use anymore the concept of average on the people because each person wants to have their own offer, their own travel, their own recommendation. They want something that is built around him or her. So you can, now it's not enough anymore to sell the flights. the hotel or we are strong in dynamic package just dynamic packages flights plus auto together for example is not enough anymore you have to give the right content you have to give it the right timing so what the customer needs is not enough okay this is the package go and buy no this is your package This is where personalization come in with also the right pricing for that segment to pass. Another point that we are working a lot is that also this one is not new, but it's still a trend, the mobile first approach. So smartphones are always in your day. Every day is in your hands. So it's not anymore just a booking tools. You can use the smartphone before, during, and after the trip. So this is also how we are thinking about our UI. and UI when you're thinking to new features. So mobile first approach is important still today. If we're speaking about technology, more technology, we have to move from a platform that's just serving APIs to a platform that is able to adapt, be smart. is able to predict the needs of the customer is not enough to have just few APIs, no? As we read in past, so event-driven technology, real-time changing, AI for sure. So let's say you have to create a more customized experience, something that say, okay, this is for me. It's not for Diego, it's not for another one, it's for me. This is in my opinion the most important trends right now in our market, generally speaking. Diego Calligaro (26:52) That's great. of course, among these trends, you mentioned this before, the social AI that everybody of course is talking about. in this case, how AI is impacting your business. Mirco Patroncini (27:05) AI is a bit different, say. AI is already reshaping the travel world. I guess you read everywhere, every day there is something new around AI and travels. Let's say AI is impacting on two sides, on customer and also on technology itself internally, Why, let's say... from a customer point of view, you can create more intelligent offers journey. You can give them recommendations. You can drive with natural language processing the shopping part rather than using the standard search widgets. So AI is changing a lot. AI is creating a sort of shopping assistance, let's say in this way. So in future, each of us will have his own personal assistant that is able to do things on behalf of us, no? Rather than browsing your websites, you can directly buy something with your voice, why not? So this is mostly the impact of AI in travel. And the raise of the AI agents is really important. We are moving from a standard chatbot where we have got intent quite clear, where people can ask just a few stuff. If you are trying to ask the most complex things, the old chatbot were not able to manage you and you have to go to the customer service in order to answer something. With the chatbot, you are changing completely the experience of the customer. With the chatbot you can ask questions, suggestions, can help you to book, to find support in a practical way. Sometimes he's answering those questions, maybe he understands under your intent, even if you still have to ask it. So this means for them to be faster doing bookings and moving to a different experience where you don't have to browser a website. You have just to things what you want and write what you want and everything is magic, let's say in this way. So I guess AI is impacting a lot and really even more in the short future, I would say not long future because we have seen how fast is the adoption of AI everywhere in the world. So I guess it's important to be not a follower in the AI world, but be early adopters. And this is where we are working on, to be early adopters also in the AI part. Diego Calligaro (29:37) And if you look at how AI is impacting from a technical perspective, like your teams, the tech profession itself and the technical teams, how is that crucial and how you see in coming years shaping the tech professionals? Mirco Patroncini (29:44) Yes. Okay, on technology the same as travel. So we have seen a big impact coming from the AI. You can imagine, guess. The difference is that it's not just a tool. It's a new programming language that is coming out. No, the AI has changed completely the way you are thinking technology. And this is part of the workflow of every day. So you need to trade the AI, not ignore it. Trade AI is part of your job. So for example, we are using it for documentation, for testing, debugging, also for writing code, you know? We have got code written by the AI because I don't know, something that before took a month, now it took a few days with the AI. So it's not an option. It's not anymore optional using the AI for our engineers, for our people. It's mandatory for them. It's like using GitHub for them, Or using a new programming language. They have to learn it. And this is where we are investing. We are investing to train our people to use AI. because you need the right prompt, you need the right person, able to understand how to ask the right things to the AI in the right way. So it's not just a matter of asking to the AI, it's how you're asking. And it's a huge change for the people. So the ones that are able to manage the AI in the right way will be the ones with the future in their hands. If you are the ones that are at the tractor, probably in 10 years, you will be in a bad position. I will say, just to not say something. So you have to be curious, you should be adapting to the new world and things that are coming. So technology is strongly impacted for sure. But let's say we are trying to upscale our people. So this is the point. We want our people to be able to manage the AI in order to drive the AI change, not be driven by the AI itself. So it's better that humans are usually driving the AI rather than the opposite stuff. Diego Calligaro (31:59) And have you seen maybe an impact in terms of hiring technical individuals, given the high productivity gains that you are getting through AI, maybe even junior positions, for example? Mirco Patroncini (32:11) Okay, let me say that on this point, there are some false myth that we have to speak about because yes, for sure AI is creating a productivity gain, for sure. Diego Calligaro (32:25) Of course Mirco Patroncini (32:27) But there is a but. So AI is not solving everything. So now we are seeing AI everywhere. Every tools should have the AI. Every sentence you are speaking on daily basis should have the AI word inside it. But let's see, AI is not solving everything. It's impossible for the AI because there are still a part of the job that is human managed. So as I was saying before, Sometimes we are reading also on internet, some posts, some blogs, we saved 40 % in code developments. That's a part of the story. The other part is that, okay, the AI is writing the code, but how many times and how many iterations you need in order to have the right code. Because as I said at the beginning, the security and the reliability still matters a lot. We have to protect our customers. So you cannot take the code written by the AI as it is and bring this in production. You need the engineers working, validating the tools, validating the output of the AI, also able to understand the context, write the right prompt in order to have the AI writing the right code. This is still time you need. So you cannot cut right now that time. Maybe in future things are improving, but right now as per today, some of the productivity gain is lost in this action, this activity that you have to do on day by day. and speaking about junior engineers, since you asked about junior, this is another things that I want to add. It's a... false thinking that you can hire a junior engineer and asking him to solve a complex problem. Because in order to solve a complex problem you should know the context, the domain, what to ask. So if you've got a junior person probably he doesn't still know the context of the company or the domain or how to ask the right thing. So the issue you could have is that the result is not what you were expecting. That's why, as I said before, it's better to train the people, to give them the seniority to manage the eye in the right way. For sure in this way, you are able to reach a good productivity gain. And I'm honest, since we are working on many AI initiatives, we see really that there's the possibility to save time and to have a real productivity gain, bringing the right value to the customer. But you have to do it with the right trainings, the right person, and the right mindsets. Diego Calligaro (35:02) Of course. And because my question was more on the junior employees, tech employees, in which they may struggle to enter this role because as AI is automating that simple part, of course, at this point, probably you would just need senior tech developers to take care of this. Mirco Patroncini (35:09) Yeah. Diego Calligaro (35:26) I'm talking about the long term. I don't know if it resonates with you or this is a trend that is not in line with what you see. Mirco Patroncini (35:35) No, no, I took your question. will say yes and no. We always need the fresh people, no? With fresh minds, with fresh ideas. So you cannot rely only on seniority or senior engineers. But if you are hiring juniors and you are asking a senior to mentor him and give him direct content, domain, you can also get already some benefit from the junior. For sure, this is a suggestion for junior engineers. Don't ask the AI to write all your code because otherwise you are not able to code, Or to understand what you're doing. This is also for the future. And it's also for my son, no? Well, now he's seven years old, so he's quite young, but maybe when he will be 18, people are still stop thinking. They are just asking everything to the eye. All the text, all the image generation, all the creativity is made by the eye. And this is scaring me a lot. And this is something I don't want to see on the... in last minute. So we don't want to see people using just the eye. If you are a junior and you need to... learn, fail, making experience and for sure the eye is a great companion on this but you should not ask the eye to do everything on your behalf otherwise you will never be senior in future. Diego Calligaro (36:53) Exactly. And especially I see that if you want to control the technology and be able to gain the maximum of it, usually it's related to the one that have the domain expertise so they can judge if the outcome is actually correct or is not. While if you delegate that thinking part, then you become controlled directly by machine and you wish that the outcome is correct. Mirco Patroncini (37:04) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Diego Calligaro (37:19) then the Sijong is not anymore on your side there. Mirco Patroncini (37:23) Let's remember that AI at the end is a software, So each software is based on the input you're giving him and the output is based on the input. So if you're giving the wrong input, also the output is wrong. We have to add on top of the AI that we have got those hallucinations. Even if you're putting the right input, sometimes you don't have the right output. So that's why you're right. We need validate the output of the AI. That's what I said at the beginning. Diego Calligaro (37:34) Hmm. Mirco Patroncini (37:49) working well when people and the eye are working together but driven by the people, not by the eye. Diego Calligaro (37:56) And there's a lot of bull statement as well about AI maybe replacing matter of mounds like tech developers or other statements that are coming out every day. Can you maybe tell your perspective in terms of what do you think are those myths, false myths about AI? Mirco Patroncini (38:16) Yes, some of them already talked about before this about the companies that are declaring layoffs. For sure there are some roles that will disappear in the future. I don't want to be not transparent on this. This is the progression, no? Every new technology, every time we are doing something, things are changing. Just things about the past. So how many people are still buying alarms? Alarm clock less. Why? Because we have got smartphones. Smartphone killed many, many different roles in past, no? Also the... Watches right now. There are many people doesn't have any anymore watches because they are looking the time on the smartphone so Each technology is bringing with him some changes as I said People are scaring. Oh, we are losing lot of roles in the future But I can say there should be other roads not coming up as usual so for sure right now where we are You can maybe remove some... Some people, most of the articles say, where there are small and easy tasks to solve because AI is solving them. When we're speaking about the engineering, I don't think that right now we are still able to really substitute them with the AI. For the discussion we had before, You need people in order to govern AI. If you don't have the people, the risk is that the AI is not governed at all. In my opinion right now, you still need to invest on your people. Rather than seeing the eye as a replacement, I will see the eye as an assistant to the engineers. For sure, in future, there could be changes. As I said, engineers should learn the eye because if they are not, they will be, let's say, for sure dismissed in future because... If you don't have that kind of skill in the upcoming years, you will not be anymore interested in the market. So this is important. But also for managers, the same. Not only engineers. Diego Calligaro (40:21) course. Mirco, thanks a lot for sharing these points and this conversation. Just a few final questions. would like your advice when it comes to CTOs when running their function, if you can share your piece of advice for them. Mirco Patroncini (40:39) okay. Let me say one advice that I learned on my own, myself. Don't try to do everything. So you are not alone. You have two things that you with. You have got a lot of teams. Now you've got your structure. You have to leverage on them. So you don't have to do everything alone. So you have to focus on building the right teams, the right structure that can help you to do things better. you so this is my first advice and another point that this is strong because I always follow this in my private life every time that they see me something I cannot do it is something I cannot support I cannot feel it on me so you don't have to accept people saying, I'm not able to do it, I cannot do it. You have to, because it's a matter of wish to do. So it's better to say, I don't want to do rather than I can't. Okay, I can maybe understand your point. Maybe you don't want to do it because you don't agree with the decision. We can discuss about it, but I cannot do it. It's a no. I want to do a citation of Mikke Ibening, that is the founder of Not Impossible Lab. I don't know if you know it, but he's always said that impossible is something that nobody makes possible yet. So I think that there's nothing you, a person cannot do. It's just matter of wish. So I want to say people to say, know, the city or try to challenge your people. Your, your, your job is also challenging the status quo, challenging what they are doing, not just protecting the roadmap is trying to get the maximum of the person understanding the weakness point, the straight point of your people and try to stretch them. with respect for sure but do not accept I cannot do it. This is one of my biggest suggestion I can say to new CTOs. Diego Calligaro (42:34) That's a really great suggestion. now if you look at your career, looking back at what you have done, what would be accomplished, what would you have done differently? Mirco Patroncini (42:38) Yes. Good question. I say I'm happy about my career and my profession. Thinking that I was starting as a plumber, not joking. Now I would say I would have embraced the unknown earlier, let's say in this way, because when every time you're changing, you are moving from something you know, your comfort zone, to something that you don't know. And when I was at the beginning, younger, I tried but was a bit more scared to do a big jump. The biggest jump was in 2013, my biggest one. And I want to have done it earlier because I see that every time you feel uncomfortable on something, it that you are growing. So you have to try to put yourself in an uncomfortable position and try to do the maximum in order to be comfortable. OK, so this means that you're growing. You're learning something that before you weren't able to do or you are also create networks with people that before you weren't able to reach. So it's important in my opinion to do some bold decisions sometimes in the life. There are sliding doors. I'll be honest with you. Most of the sliding doors I had in my life, I was quite lucky to select the right one. So, and I arrived where I am. It's also matter of being lucky sometimes, but also of effort. So commitment. Nothing is coming from free, no? You don't have to say, oh, I want to work one hour a day and become the CTO is impossible. You have to work hard, study a lot. And with your commitment, you are able for sure to reach whatever you want. It's a matter of wish, as I said before. You have to give yourself a goal and objective in your life. What I would like to be, what I want, where I want to be. And that could help a lot, giving yourself a goal, also in your private life. Diego Calligaro (44:43) Amazing. And Mirco, one last question here. Looking at the accelerating pace of change that is happening in the world as well due to technology, what do you think are like the, what concerns you have about the digital future and also what's exciting most about this? Mirco Patroncini (45:01) Let me say I'm in reality, I'm quite excited about the future as I am a technology man in the reality. as I said, so AI is fascinating, scary from a point of view, but also fascinating. And let's say. more than concern or excitement. I'm only scared that we are using the technology in the wrong way for the future. is also creating the basic also for bad usage, let's say. This could be a concern, but I guess the future will be more faster than now. As I said, I'm a strong fan of changes. every year starting from now, we have seen things are changing quite fast. So you are not boring. that's the point. From the other point of view, I hope that we are not forgetting people, okay? But as I said, this is my mantra, the people. So I want to see also and I hope that we will have... a fast environment, a fearless environment, but also an inclusive and human environment. So we don't have to forget that part. And I hope we are working hard to keep people on top of any technology this work can create in the future. Diego Calligaro (46:18) Here you go. Thanks a lot for your time. It's been an amazing conversation and definitely we're gonna have many more in the future. I wish you a great day meanwhile. Mirco Patroncini (46:22) was a page. Thank you, it was really a pleasure to be here and have a great day. Bye. Diego Calligaro (46:32) Bye bye.