ICEO Technologies (00:00) In one year, these companies go from employees to 500 people. So you only have to do the hiring, but then you have to think about how these people will work together. These are essentially future unicorns, future national champions, where most of them will succeed. Enrico Milovan is the scale-up acceleration head of the incubator dedicated to help PIF's companies launching and scaling in their first year of life. The PIF is the $925 billion Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia. one of the largest funds in the world. The PIF has built 99 major companies, including Giga projects like Neom, a high-tech new city built in the desert in Kyria, a multi-billion dollar entertainment destination set to be the world's largest entertainment city. Neom, you're basically creating a new city with a different jurisdiction in the middle of nowhere with these technologies. You need to make it work. Enrico has also worked in strategy for Accenture, PwC and Deloitte. run major innovation and venture building projects with Ford, AXA, Jellify and Credit Suisse. So you start from zero, 100 million in the bank and then from tomorrow you need to build a huge company that's going to create billions of revenue. How does it work? Don't understand that this is not a short-term gain. They don't understand that you will need to fail. Before starting this amazing interview, make sure to subscribe to the channel so you will not miss the secrets and tactics of the world leaders who will join us in the coming months. And if you have questions, comments, write it here, we will reply to you. And now let's start. Enrico, tell us when it comes to building new ventures, how the public investment fund model works. So the model is very different from a typical accelerator incubator that you would find in the wider market and other regions where you're essentially trying to build a large number of startups where most of them will probably fail. We all know the typical failure rates, whether it's 80, 90 % or 95. And then you hope for that five or 10%. return your investment for all the others. Here the model is different. In fact, it's the exact opposite where all of the ventures are called ventures, but I don't know if it's the right name. These are essentially future unicorns, future national champions, where most of them will succeed to different degrees. But essentially, PAF is building the infrastructure of the country. So in the US, it starts these businesses is altered from scratch, with a lot of through that with a feasibility study beforehand to understand whether this is indeed a good idea, whether this is indeed something that will have an impact economically on the country and to with a lot of funding. Now, this is very important because to, as I said, you're trying to build the future of Saudi Arabia. The main goals within Vision 2030 is to diversify from oil and create a sustainable international economy. So these ventures are instrumental to that. And then within all these visions, you're focusing more on accelerating these new ventures. How do accelerate this new venture? Yeah, so we provide three things essentially. One is office space. Two is the nuts, what I call the nuts and bolts for any company really to operate. But these nuts and bolts need to be a little more sophisticated than, again, the new typical startup because you know for certain that you're going to be growing very fast within the next few years. But definitely, by the way, we focus very much on the first. year, year and a half of the birth and growth of these companies. So we give them office space, we give them the basic abilities for them to operate. So a mix of advisory and services and IT in different areas. So procurement, HR, finance, IT, accounting, we call this minimum viable operations. So the basic tool. hire people to floating keys, to pay suppliers, et cetera. We take care of the company. visa side of things for foreign employees. And then there is a third area, which is the newest area within the software, which is the area that also I'm more involved in, which is the, let's call it more of an advisory type of services. And it's also the stuff that maybe moves the needle a little bit more. Of course, you need to have a good procurement platform. Otherwise, you can't go out the market to purchase services and solutions from third parties. But is that really going to make or break your company? Probably not. So it's absolutely fundamental. But especially in the longer term, it's not really what makes or breaks the company. we do, we offer services like strategy, that's not the typical strategy, know, 1,000 pages from McKinsey and BCG, but much more, but it's not PMO either. It's something in between where we take the strategy, we execute the strategy and we try to develop a strategy that maybe starts with that big deck from the big three, but then makes it a lot more practical. Go to market in some cases although sometimes it's it's a bit because of what I said before it's a little bit too early for these companies to think about that also people and culture is a really really big theme because you are in a situation where you're essentially hiring a lot of people very quickly, you know sometimes in one year these companies go from employees to 500 people so only have to do the hiring but then you have to think about how these people who work together, people who have never worked together before, who come from different countries, different industries sometimes, different world cultures. And so how do you create a harmonious and cohesive culture and set of values that what he believes in? What else? Leadership coaching. So this is related to people and culture, but more specific for the leadership team. a little bit of innovation from time, ideation we do, and then a very important aspect as well is facilitation. So there are many situations where, because we work in an environment where there's a lot of ambiguity, so you know what you need, where you need to get to. If we're building an airline, for example, know, Ria de Air is one of the companies that we have supported. So in three years, you need to have planes in the sky and a bunch of customers, but how are you going to get there? There are many paths, there are many factors involved, there many decision makers. So sometimes it's very important. People have different expectations. When they say something, it's them strategy is something for somebody, something for somebody else. know, there's creating a common language. Sometimes it's an issue. So we do a lot of facilitation where we create, where we design and execute and deliver workshops. for very senior people so that they get out of that room with a common understanding, having built trust and with clear connections. So yeah, these are some of the things we can evolve with. interesting. you mentioned before, so really scaling companies that sometimes they go from zero to 500 people within a year. Give us an example of the typical company that is scaling. What is the initial steps and then how you go from there and scaling up with such a high speed and how much money are put in the bank from day one for example. Can you give us the typical journey of this new venture? Well, let's start by saying that there isn't a typical journey because every company, you go from really, really big company slash projects. especially when it comes to, for example, real estate or some of the, we have the air as I mentioned or Kingselman Airport. So as you can imagine, these are massive projects, very capital heavy and with an unexpected launch date that is maybe five, six or some cases even 10 or 15 years ahead. And in some cases it's not 15 years, it's 15 months. It's different types of business, different industries, time to market. So it really, the reason that typical journey, but usually the beginning is very operational heavy, if we can call that. So it's not about the big strategy. not about, it's really, do I find, I mean, even office space, that is a big issue because Saudi Arabia is growing very rapidly. The demand for offices is growing more quickly than... the demand is growing more quickly than an extra supply. even that, how do I find, I want to have an AMOI people all together, maybe it's in three months I know we're going to be 50 people, want them to be all together, how do I find an office for 50 people? In a nice place like Taft where kind of some of the biggest companies are placed. So there is a rush for that. there was a rush then to develop all the other things that I mentioned before. So I want to issue an RFP as quickly as possible because I don't know, I need some consultancy. I want to hire people. So how do we build the right procurement capability? So it's all very operational. And what makes complex is a number of things the speed by which you do that you have to do it really quickly people want things by yesterday so you have to do it quickly all of this you're doing with people who are working together for the first time so both the employees of that company are new to each other and they're new to you you're really one obviously all these the distances of the puzzle are connected so procurement HR the finance etc Digital are all connected. So you have to build something that it makes sense for for the other pieces Yeah, so there there are some There are some major challenges no and also you have to build in a way that is that is scalable because at the beginning it's Two people then in maybe in six months, it will be 50 people and then in one year will be 200 people So how do you build that quickly? also making sure that whatever you've built meets the needs of these companies at these different stages, which, which paper growth. mean, even if we exclude maybe some of the biggest successes now of startups in the world, maybe the top zero, 1%, even the startup doesn't grow that quickly. I mean, it's a bit of a myth that this, some of these startups explode. Sure it happens, but normal startups can go easily two, three years with maybe five, six people as a core team. and then grow, you know? So this is very unique. And here it's also very challenging, definitely probably identify the right people to develop this con, because it's something in the middle between a large multinational and also a very early stage of having to scale. So how do you find this individual and who are usually like the... characteristic of these individuals. Yeah, you touched on a very important point. Not only you need to find people with experience in ideally in that particular industry, you have to find people willing to move to Saudi Arabia, which is becoming less of an issue because Saudi Arabia is becoming more and more attractive from a personal perspective. I love being here and it's been great. So that's less of an issue, but still, maybe some people still not aware of these changes. And then you have to find I know what you're saying, this hybrid mindset of, understand, there are some risks that I to manage, there will be some bureaucracy, there will be many layers of decision making, I need to either work in or create a governance system that works, but at the same time, I'm doing something usually that is quite new, or maybe the value proposition of the business model is not new, but the way you're doing it is new, because you have to do it 10 times quicker than a normal scenario. And that requires, of course, a different mindset that is much more, as you were saying, entrepreneurial and a mindset also that is more, which I think is very important and very hard to find, a mindset that is what I call systemic thinking. understanding, okay, if you do this, that's going to have an impact on my colleagues or my suppliers, or it's going have an impact, I don't know, three years down the line, this is going to be a problem. And it's not easy to... to think like that. So yeah, it's a struggle and in many models, actually what happens, especially when it comes to real estate development projects, sometimes these projects are fighting for the same talent in their ways. And now without going into the specific of how PF is managing that, but absolutely it's not easy. Also because resalutization, which is basically a way for the government to protect the local talent by having certain quotas. for every company, there is a certain ratio that you need to have expats to locals and sometimes start to find a local talent for that because simply because Saudi Arabia hasn't operated at a certain level economically for such a long time. It's been maybe 15 years. So especially you're lacking certain skills. So yeah, it is challenging. I put myself in the shoes of, for example, a CEO of one of these companies. So you start from zero. 100 million in the bank and then from tomorrow you need to build a huge company that's gonna create billions of revenue. are the decision makers? Is it a typical vertical structure in which the CEO decides or as you said like more layers of decision making to deliver those results? How does it work? Well, the main centers of decision making are of course the management team, the company itself. In some cases there is a board depending on the size of the company. some cases there is a board working in any major company. But then you also have another, so actually there three in most cases, which is in way the board of PAF and it goes down, it goes up all the way to the current prints. So some of these CEOs. for some particular decisions or funding rounds, which of course are not the same as the typical VC friendly round, but they still go through something they get all the money at once. So for this decision, they deal directly with the companies. And so it can be quite complex because the people go for the board of PF, and they don't imagine how many, especially the PF board, how many projects they have to deal with. So it's not just a case of managing that company, but it is also managing the portfolio. Yeah. Especially because through your accelerator as well, pass major projects, right? Like even the biggest one, like Neon, right? Yeah. Back in the days, yeah, we also worked for Neon, some parts of Neon, because Neon is maybe, don't quote me on this, maybe eight or nine years old, maybe 10. But we've started to build most of our capabilities maybe five or six years ago. So we did some work for the new entities of NEO, companies like Tornamouse, example, and others. And then when it comes to tracking the progress of these major projects, what are usually the processes that are used? practices that you use in tracking the progress? Well, from the site, for the areas that I mentioned that are more operationally focused, there is a very detailed dashboard where essentially we track for every of the major service areas that we offer. The progress, also we measure things like how much, because these companies don't necessarily have to use our services. They can go and leverage the rest of the market as well. So we also measure how much of that. particular service line has been procured or has been given to us versus the way the market. and for us, then we track some major KPIs, which are time to market because these companies are not going to market, is time to company registration. by the time where they're really starting with nothing, it's just two people in a room and a business plan that's been approved to when the company is actually registered. And then there is an There is another one which is basically when the company has all the bits to operate, time to minimum viable operation or something like this. it's quite comprehensive and we review this progress together. is a meeting that we have every month where the senior management and the account manager, because every company is an account manager, that basically is that glue between And it's that middle person between the client and all the service line or managers and directors. And that account managers will give an overview of SIPP apany and they will discuss financial delays, ways to accelerate. Okay, clear. And then can you give us an example maybe of a specific project that you follow like from the ground up? You mentioned the airport or maybe you have other? Yeah, mean, PF is always very secretive and doesn't like employees to talk too much about specific projects. So I won't go into the details, but the companies that we work with are Kingston Man Airport, we have the Air. We helped with the VOV, which is an e-sports company. We've done some work for the coffee company of, which does both retail. It's like the Starbucks of Saudi Arabia in a way. And Camel Milk company. These are a few examples of B2C, which is more of the exception. We have done work for aerospace, this new aerospace company, more focused on new innovation. how for example, aerospace imaging can help with agriculture, with the real estate projects. We've also done some work for Seer, which is one of the automotive companies within the EPF group. EVIC, which is a company that builds all the charging stations for electric vehicles, which at the moment is still a very nascent industry, but the plan is to rely more and more on EVs. And then a lot of real estate development projects, which I cannot really talk about, but which are happening everywhere in the country. also some of them, all these projects, of course, this is an industry where you start maybe 10 years before everything is even known. there are a few projects, Riyadh, which we started to support, which are not public yet, but they're massive. and in the range of how much would you say the size of the project? I don't want to give specific numbers, let's just say that given some of these industries by definition, probably the minimum funding, maybe 50 million, 100 million, probably the minimum size of funding and then... course, we go into the billions. the budget for NIO is somewhere around 500 billion. This is from 50 million to 500 billion. It's a huge range. Enrico, tell us more about this difference between a venture capitalist and the PIF approach. Yeah, the main difference is definitely risk. is banking on the fact that there will be one, usually one big hugely successful company that makes up for the other 95 % of the companies that fail. So one is risk. We also need to manage risk, but in a different way. It's not a risk of will the company succeed or not, but how much will it succeed? And there is still a risk of putting a lot of money from upfront from day one, which is basically completely, you know, the opposite of the mantra of the startup world where first you need to prove yourself and then I give you a bit more and then I give you a bit more and then if you meet certain targets, if you find traction, if you find product market fit, et cetera. So here you're just saying, no, here is, it's not exactly that because again, Even for Neon, are different stages and it's not like five billion from day one. But it's a lot more money. So KSA as a country still needs to manage these big bets. Some of them are safer than others. you know, real estate, traditional real estate in Riyadh, which is lacking a lot of, especially for certain type of housing. The effect, for example, Russian is building, which is one of the BF companies. mean, for me, this is as a risk that is close to zero because, you know, once these properties are the market, they're sold the next day. With Neom, you're basically creating a new city with a different jurisdiction in the middle of nowhere with these technologies. You need to make it work. So it's a different type of risk. It's a risk on the specific venture rather than from a portfolio perspective. Also, the difference is that it's also a financial gain. It's economic and strategic gain. So you're building these ventures not just because you want to make a return. In fact, that's not the lens at all for PAF. PAF doesn't build these companies because in 10 years it's going to sell it. It's going to float into the market. Maybe in my... happening in some rare cases, guess, but the main focus is creating something that can develop the national economy, that the non-oil related economy can grow quickly, and as a country can become independent, less dependent on experts, etc. So, in potentially some industries can even create some globally relevant brands and companies. So, and also just the scale that the amount of capital invested, obviously, I we see even the biggest We see, I have no idea what the numbers are, but surely it's going to be so much smaller than what certain fund like PF can deploy. And then regarding this exposure, there are a lot of investment now in new emerging technology companies, new innovation in general, just look at the 100 billion. investment in the AI of Saudi Arabia. What's the involvement of PIF? know it led the round. What's your take on this initiative? I cannot go into too much detail, but essentially PIF wants to create a key company in the country for AI by putting resources from other entities. government, semi-government, sometimes even private, also with partnerships with Google, for example, that's the public during FII. And again, it's one of those examples where it's not a case of, which is also doing bringing startups from the outside into Saudi Arabia in a non-centralized way. But usually this is the forward thinking of Saudi Arabia of let's create something that I can manage centrally. So I want to create my own AI capability as a country to then form my own benefit, whether it's real estate, whether it's in automotive, so that he can serve. everything is not Mark Zuckerberg wakes up one day and says, I want to do the metaverse. And maybe for the US that has no value at all as a country. Here the logic is I want to manage this centrally for the benefit of the country. So this is really important, useful. It's a mindset. We've talked about this before in other conversations with you that I think it's a model that maybe should be used by other countries as well. Yeah. What do you mean about this? Tell us more about this model applied to other countries in terms of benefits for society. think that the main... And now we're talking more, maybe we're starting to talk less about ventures, more about... politics in a way, what is amazing really about countries like Saudi Arabia or UAE is that they came up with We know that it's very important as a company to have a strategy. So why wouldn't you have it as a country? I mean, it's even probably more important as a country because there's so many stakeholders involved because you need to think ahead. For both Europeans, the story unfortunately is a little bit sad. And that's why we're both citizens of the world. We've lived in different countries because of this inability of the West, of countries like Italy to plan ahead. I don't know what's the average tenure, no, the prime minister in Italy is probably maybe a year, a year and a few months. How can you develop a strategy to develop certain industries, to develop certain capabilities? You simply cannot just look at China. China is China because a lot of the decision-making is centralized. I'm sure some people can debate about certain ramifications of that, but from an economic perspective, there is no debate. It's just a better system. And so I would love to see that, unfortunately, I think it's just wishful thinking, to see countries in Europe, especially, they follow a similar approach. They have a strategy, they have their own vision 2030 or whatever that might be, and try to maybe develop certain capabilities in certain companies in a similar way, where they say, I'll hire 100 people to develop, for example, the Italian AI, they need to be a national champion. And as a government here is 200 million to build that. Why don't we have that? I think it's a missed opportunity. I think there are entities like CDP that maybe is trying to play little bit that role through the central bank, I don't have any examples of a similar strategy and it's disappointing. one side, we have countries that have short-term objectives, maybe in Europe and on the other side, maybe you have this country that have a huge potential in a way because they're planning 20, 30, 50... years ahead. So that creates as well the right environment to build those companies. And what do you think are the repercussions in the future if countries, for example, in Europe don't take a similar approach, such a long term vision? will just continue like it's been for the past 20 years when we're losing, we're becoming less and less competitive, we're becoming less and less attractive for investors, we're becoming less and less attractive for foreigners to work in these countries? I who would want to work? Sure, Italy is a beautiful country, I love Italy. But if you are somebody with a good CV, with a good experience, why would you want to work in Italy? With the tax system? Yeah, good if you are very young or very old, but everything in the middle will be tough. Italy, you hear, and I guess this is the same in the rest of Europe, it's silly fights between politicians. That's low value, absolutely low value. And the other thing you hear is a lot of spending, but not on the future. Spending on the future, how much are we spending on education, how much are we spending on pensions, how much are we spending on healthcare, and maybe we cut a little bit here, we increase a little bit there, then we give some incentives to people at the end of the year, we give them 100 euros so that they feel better, they vote my party again. I mean, this is not a strategy. You never hear in any... What you hear about here in the news here or in the UE where I've lived before is big projects. You'll hear about stuff spending on the future, like this AI hub, or you hear about a new real estate development project, you hear about this new incentive to attract maybe talent from outside, the startups. So putting money for the future. It's CapEx and not OPEX. So a lot of investment in the future. if we look at the innovation itself, you know, you're being in this both worlds, like a lot of innovation in Europe with the multinationals as well as emerging companies and now in the Middle East as well. What do you think is the difference when it comes to doing innovation between Europe and Saudi? So in more mature markets like Europe, like the United States and some other parts of the world, innovation as a whole is still emerging. It's still a practice where there are different schools of thought. There have been a lot of failures. This is another thing that we've talked about in other places in the past that unfortunately innovation doesn't have a good reputation in some cases because there have been too many failures. There's been too much innovation theater. I've seen with my own eyes people in charge of big innovation projects that knew nothing about, maybe they knew the basic concept, the key words, but were more concerned about making an office look nice, bean bags with ping pong tables, with nice snacks, kind of mimicking Google but Google is not Google because of this. is Google because of the culture, because of certain conditions which are not easy to replicate. And just knowing some basic design thinking concepts and having read the lean startup, this doesn't make you really an innovation expert. think what makes you an expert is practice, is failure, is blood, sweat and tears. But in many corporates, you don't like failure, they don't like uncertainty so people also learn about innovation in their own way, which maybe politically for their own job security works, but doesn't work in terms of effectiveness. And that is why I'm not going to name them, but there are so many examples of innovation hubs, accelerators, incubators, whatever you want to call them, that opened up for a few years and then after a few years they closed. Why? Because they just didn't deliver the results. Where there was no strategy, where you would build this innovation hub without a clear strategy, without clear KPIs, maybe because you didn't want to be accountable. But then somebody knocks at the door, maybe in a few years, maybe management changes, you get a new CEO, CFO, hard-nosed people who don't care about the fluffiness of creativity and so on. Look at the numbers and they knock and they say, okay, so we spent X amount, what did you deliver? What extra revenue did you bring? And then they don't like the answers and then they show you down. This is the legacy in a lot of cases of innovation. In fact, know professionals also in innovation industry that because of this don't want to be called or associated with the word innovation because of this negative connotation. So they find other creative names. So this is the legacy in mature markets. So hopefully, Saliebe can learn from that and doesn't replicate the same mistakes. But it's still early days for two reasons, because you still don't have that much experience talent in innovation, although it's improving every year. are some small examples, but for example, there are a couple of good venture building companies here that are doing some promising work. it's one area, one reason is talent, and two is because there's still not, we're not at point yet where you can do a lot of innovative stuff. in many cases, because it's about building the foundation. There are some exceptions to that, but now it's very much about taking what's already working there and building a good foundation. Maybe in a couple of years, we will see more ideas, business models, which are truly innovative stuff that doesn't exist in the rest of the world, but exists here. This will be, I think, the next level. hope it's coming soon. Yeah, indeed. Going back to what you were saying many times within the corporate, it's also about the expectation and the risk tolerance of some corporations because failure is part of innovation. So what would you suggest to those innovation leaders that they are facing that problem, let's say of really try to deliver short-term results to show to the leadership team that innovation works, but at same time, they need to work as well on projects that are going to return probably in five, six years and more. Yeah. This is a very important problem. Very, very important that is rarely solved within a company. Unfortunately, I don't have an idea of Silver Bullet and the old solution. What I can say from experience is that you have to try as much as possible and educates your audience. I've seen many situations where people go, let's build this, let's build a venture builder, and they don't understand. the basics. don't understand that this is not a short term game. They don't understand that you need to, you will need to fail. They want, in many cases, I'm generalizing, but they want things to be run like a project because this is the way that you run things in a business as usual. The funny thing is that when you talk to, when you talk to a lot of stakeholders about principle innovation, they all agree. We need to embrace failure. We need to be agile. We need to be creative. We need to embrace uncertainty. We need to be customer centric. And then you go into the implications of this and you find much less agreements. For example, this means that you cannot plan so, you know, with such fine detail ahead, which is usually people that traditional corporate people hate. You cannot say this is how you get that tier three. It's absolutely nonsense. I mean, it's incredible that some people still think like that. I'm talking about very innovative stuff. Of course, if you're doing small incremental innovation, and you have a lot of reliable assumption data to base these models on, okay, it's another story. When you're talking about something that is truly innovative, cannot give this a person. It's just wishful thinking. So you have to educate your audiences to change the mindset and to do things really differently. And sometimes you work and sometimes you won't. I think as a professional within the innovation world, It's not nice to say, but sometimes you just have to accept that this is the way it is and you cannot win every battle. Thank you for sharing Enrico and few last questions. So for our listeners, tell us more about the opportunities that Saudi Arabia and also the Public Investment Fund offer to those individuals and companies. looking to collaborate in these major projects? Well, it's hard to be specific because things change very quickly. until end of 2023, the mindset was a bit like, sky's the limit, let's spend, let's hire. So then things slow down a little bit. 2024, think has been the year of rationalization, of thinking a little bit deeper about all the spending, are we spending in the right areas? Are we maybe over-investing in certain areas? There is definitely a cash flow as a country, a bit of a cash flow issue. If we just look at, know, PF selling some of the shares of Oval Anko several months ago, and then more recently the shares of STC to have some cash to inject some of these companies, you understand that maybe there has been a bit of over-spending. So now it's a case of, let's let's cut where we should cut and maybe let's reallocate into into the right areas. The way I think as a a total I'm not an expert but I think as a total spending it's still growing but it's reallocating and cutting in in some areas. So so maybe a few months and maybe the trend changes a little bit and you'll find I don't know hundreds of jobs for AI experts. to come into the country. So things are so quickly, it changes so quickly here that it's hard to say. But definitely there is a hunger for talent. This country has a very bright future. It's going to grow massively over the next five or six years and beyond. For somebody who's not in, or maybe who's not even considering living here, I would suggest to look into what this country is doing because it's fascinating. As I said before, also from a personal point of view, the standard of living is really, really high. It's a country that is safe, clean, everything works. Audis are extremely welcoming. It's really, especially as an Italian, they love Italy. So whenever you tell them that you're from Italy, start a conversation about food and football. So, yeah, I would definitely say look into it. It's not gonna be easy, especially if you don't have experience. maybe within the region. If you've lived most of your life in Europe, it might not be as easy. There a lot of people who want to move into KSA, but it's definitely worth looking into it. And then look at the rapid rate of change and the acceleration of technology that is impacting the world today. What concerns you have about the digital future and also what excites you most? Especially when it comes to AI, I'm a little bit more concerned than excited. I think the benefits of AI are clear. I don't think we need to, know, in fact, the potential is even greater than more optimistic. people can think about. But what concerns me a little bit is the potential damage this will make. The other day, somebody was showing me this AI prompt and you just give them some inputs like your audience, your budget, your current markets and then this AI creates strategy. And for a while, you're basically losing all that knowledge of people who can create marketing strategy as an example, which is a hugely intellectual work and very complex and we might be losing that to a black box because also we don't know exactly what's happening in this black box. So, the analogy of, said, a grandfather could build a house from the ground up. My father can paint the walls, can fix the door, can do some basic plumbing. I can barely change a light bulb. So, you've lost all that knowledge. And when it comes to things like that, you say, well, you know, Do you really need to have that skill? Okay, we can debate about that. Maybe it's better that we have a system now where houses are prefabricated and if you don't know how to build a house, then no issue. But when it comes to things like that, where you develop a marketing strategy, I think it's a shame that you're losing that thinking because I don't want AI, I mean, even if I could have AI to replace that, why would I want to do that? And I'm not for... artificial intelligence and for human intelligence. So why would I want to delegate something like that to machines? Definitely a wider discussion around what are the potential pitfalls of AI and specifically and the negative impact it can have on humans. It's something that we need to look into and to be honest, I don't really hear this discussion very often, maybe because if you talk about that, you're branded as somebody who's against technology, who's against progress, but I think it's really important. Just look at social media. Sure, social media has huge benefits, but it also has the impact, the negative impact. Talking about simply young people being able to communicate anymore because they only communicate through social media. There is a friend of mine here who's building an app to help people to meet face-to-face because his own son, he was in his early teens, was going through a period where if you take his phone away from him, he wouldn't be able to cope. So this is real example, and I'm afraid that AI will lead to similar and even more potentially damaging. So I'm totally for AI as a technology, as I said, huge benefits, but we should think about the ramifications. Enrico, thanks a lot for this conversation. It's been a great speaking with you and definitely we get the chance to speak again in the future. Likewise. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's been my pleasure. Thank you for watching this incredible interview. 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