Serap Zel (00:00) That's why I think every leader should have that talent mindset, like how can I attract the right skill set within my budget, within my time limit, what are my channels. But AI-based platforms really screen more than 30, 40 different internet sources and bring the right candidates to us, which is really amazing and we are saving time. Of course, I'm always a believer of human touch, so we still need that human touch to assess people correctly. But in the sourcing part, bringing the right talent on the table, those types of technologies help a lot. those male-dominated environments because to stand your voice out there, sometimes you receive lot of judgments as well. So you have to stay strong. Some systems, for example, chop the CV and remove the names, pictures from the resumes for you to have. Serap has run many leadership programs within major multinationals, and she has personally hired over 700-plus employees and 100-plus C-level executives in over 50 countries. Diego Calligaro (01:14) There's a lot of competition among companies, small ones competing against large multinational for very competitive roles. What the CEO should do to really make their company most attractive as possible. Serap Zel (01:29) That's a million dollar question. Yes. So first of all, there's bias in their AI algorithm in the recruitment and some of their algorithms select more females than male or male to female. are increasing your number of roles. You become a businesswoman, but now you become a wife and mom. And of course you have maybe elder, the mother and father as well that you have to still think about them and support them. So you have to juggle between all those priorities while you are still at the really exciting times of your careers. Sometimes you say, this resume doesn't really match with this profile, but you have to assess the energy, passion, motivation, et cetera. You have to talk to a person. Diego Calligaro (02:18) you Before starting this amazing interview, make sure to subscribe to the channel so you will not miss the secrets and tactics of the world leaders who will join us in the coming months. And if you have questions, comments, write it here, we will reply to you. And now let's start. Serap, I'm so glad to have you here today and you have an amazing experience working in many countries in Europe, US, Latin America, Middle East. Now you recently moved to Dubai. tell us what keeps you motivated as a leader and what's your drive as a leader? Serap Zel (02:58) Thanks a lot, Diego, for the invitation. First of all, it's always nice to meet you on this type of platforms. So yeah, I've worked in different industries, different countries, but I guess my motivation and passion always on talent and how we bring those talent together and connecting people to right opportunities, right businesses. And sometimes not only the people, but also the ideas, like how they bring all those creative ideas together and connect them. Because I see that everywhere there are full of opportunities, especially now as I'm an entrepreneur. So I see lots of different opportunities, which keeps me motivated every day to deliver even more and build more connections globally. Diego Calligaro (03:39) Thanks for sharing. Let's discuss more about hiring, your focus, hiring top talent. What are the trends that you see globally in the market, effective hiring? Serap Zel (03:51) Yeah, that's a good question. Actually, there are a couple of trends that I see. First of all, there is still that talent war that we always mentioning for years, especially for technical roles, very specialized roles. And especially now with the globalization, the talent is everywhere. People are moving or without moving, they can actually work from their own country or other countries. So then as the talent pool gets... a little bit larger and the competition is getting larger as well from business perspective. So finding the right talent with the right specifications or experience and technical skill is still a big challenge for companies. And of course there are a couple of things which also help companies like if they have very strong employer brands, maybe they don't see this challenge much because that creates a talent attraction from those company perspective. But especially for startups. Scale-ups even like growing companies, they sometimes feel this challenge a little bit. but there are also lots of different talent options. So that's what I see in the market. In the past, the companies were thinking that, I need to hire someone for this role and that specification as a full-time employee. But today companies are thinking differently. So they need that skillset and experience. But if they can find someone for a temporary time, like a as a part-time or like three months, six months contracts. So they look from that angles as well. So I think now we are shifting a little bit paradigm to more flexible workforce structure, which really helps companies. to find the right talent easily as they are not only looking from one perspective. And the other trend which I can mention is about the technology, of course. I think everyone in every technology disrupted every industry as well as recruitment business. And there are lots of different AI-based platforms. VR is used as well in assessment. And of course, for some companies that might be a little bit too sophisticated. But it's coming so fast. Of course, we are using LinkedIn and other platforms, but AI-based platforms really screens more than 30, 40 different internet sources and bring the right candidates to us, which is really amazing. And we are saving time. Of course, I'm always a believer of human touch. So we still need that human touch, like assess people correctly. But in the sourcing part, bringing the right talent on the table, those types of technologies help a lot. Diego Calligaro (06:26) Yeah, indeed. And based on your experience and what you see, what are those roles that are so critical or maybe are difficult to bring in? Serap Zel (06:37) Yeah, especially technology roles as now we talk about a little bit technology, cybersecurity roles, machine learning, engineer type of roles and robotics as well, by the way, because robotics field is also moving quite fast. So these are like a technical roles, which every region, by the way, not only specifically US or Europe, but every region facing some challenges to find the right talent because the talent is... quite newly developed as well as that these technologies are developing. And I believe all these HR roles is also difficult ones to build because I think there's a little bit expectation from HR roles that they need to bring the vision linked to the business strategy. They need to have that mindset and you know, like the business mindset, but as well as they need to have a good chemistry between the company culture and the... personal values, those roles are a bit more challenging. mean, you can't really use lots of different technologies to find the people like a good CVs. You need to assess personalities. so yeah, HR roles are always challenging, but usually technical roles we see more challenge. Like as I said, technical expertise, even in engineering roles or a technology role. Diego Calligaro (07:52) And many of these roles are very new sometimes or recent or emerging. So I guess it's also difficult to assess whether a person is up to the task and objectives. Like how do you assess like these new emerging roles to make sure that you find the right person? Serap Zel (08:12) Yeah, exactly. No, I think this is really a good challenge for all recruiters because recruiters may not be experts in that technical area, but at least the recruiters can do the first screening and looking at the qualifications of the person, past experience. And I think in the assessment part asking... past experience with examples, always really helpful. And instead of just talking a little bit like general terms or like general skills, it is just waste of time to be honest in the job interviews. Always ask what that person had in the past. What was the result? What was the project? And also this is a great opportunity for an interviewer as well who may not know all the technical details, but at least. can understand what the person has done and what has he or she has learned and what was the result. And you can still relate to the topic without knowing all the details. But I, therefore I believe in the job interviews, like structured job interviews are really critical to select the right person. Meaning that you need to understand like which competencies you are looking for first and then what are the questions that you can ask? Always asking open-ended question and. probing those questions, get more details and as well as assessing the answer is art, I would say, because you need to have an experience and you can relate to the answer and probe with the right question as next. So I think this, I pay attention a lot on the interview quality to assess the right person and the right skills. Diego Calligaro (09:50) Okay. And let's put our sets in the shoes of maybe of those CEOs or people that are hiring someone that needs to be, that has a different skillset or experience and knowledge than they have. So they don't have the technical maybe background to assess them. What are those tactics that they should use to assess them and choose between different candidates? Serap Zel (10:13) Yeah. So first of all, definitely as I mentioned, the right questions, usually what I see with the CEOs or like a startup co- like founders, co-founders, they have always some set of questions in their minds. They go through with those questions each time, but especially for each role, you need to dig different things and you need to get some preparation for those questions. So that really helps to standardize a little bit your approach, of course, for each candidate because You should ask the same set of questions to the each candidate for the same role to be able to compare them like their answers, like Apple to Apple comparison, right? So if you ask different questions to everyone, you will be mixed feelings at the end, which one is the right. So I think asking the right questions, as I said, and you can get help from chat.jpt as well, by the way. mean, if you don't know like, what should I ask? Just put the job description there and saying that like, what should I ask with this candidate? It gives really good questions. can. get from that, the questions should be open-ended as I said. And as well as on the startups, there are not many interviewers sometimes because they're usually small teams to start with. If they are scaled up, course, that can be different interviews. But I suggest to have at least two, three interviews before they make the hiring decision because every person approaches candidates from different angles and they are asking different questions, different competencies they are assessing. So it's always good to have a little bit different eyes on that and get then consolidate all the feedback together. Make the more informed decision because hiring is an important decision. You, especially for startups, because you need to bring the right profile to make that shift in your business and bring the growth and right mindset. And what I also see, especially when, as we work with startups as well, when we make a really right leader, like a right move for the right leader to the startup, that leader becomes a talent magnet. So that leaders gets many different talents from their network to grow the company further. That's why, especially for leadership roles, I think it's even more critical role to select the right person. yeah, asking the right questions and having different views, like interview, interviewers in the team. And I think the last thing is, really being a little bit fast in the process because when you find the right talent, you sometimes say that maybe I need to look for more talent, like more options. But if you don't move fast with the right person, that person has different options in the market. As I mentioned, the talent war earlier, especially good talent always have different offers on the table. So that's why moving fast in the process is also making a big deal to get the right talent in place and the company. Yeah. So the speed is also important. Diego Calligaro (13:00) And you've been hiring hundreds of people and from your side, when do you know that you have in front the right candidate that want to really hire? that decision, is it really like so rational or it's more about a gut feeling or a question of trust? Serap Zel (13:16) Yeah. So yeah, I always believe that recruitment is combination of art and science. So art part that feelings, you know, like you have six sense that, or you have a little bit chemistry with the person. If this is a right, can I work with this person or not? That's the part that you always assess internally while you are interviewing person. But the science part is also understanding the answers and looking for different views from other interviewers and looking at the resume, technical backgrounds, and using data points to make that decision even more objective. So I think these two parts, I always think about that. I mean, with that mindset, when I look at a candidate and have the interviews, I always put that in my mind. And on the art parts, of course, as we are thinking about our feelings, et cetera. There's always a bit bias as well. If you, if the candidate comes from like the graduate from the same university or worked in the same company that you worked in the past, you have some sort of like close feelings, right? To the person you can relate on or you can find common points, but having like less bias in the process also really helps to select the right person. But it's tough to say, I mean, it's easy to say, tough to do. Because we sometimes even don't know our own biases, right? So it goes without even noticing them. But I think, yeah, definitely art and science parts together to make the more informed decision in recruiting. think that that's the success criteria. Diego Calligaro (14:45) And the bias part that you mentioned is definitely very important. Also be aware of it. It's very important. What do you think are the main biases that a person should be aware of when recruiting someone? Serap Zel (14:57) Yeah, so I can actually share a good example from Amazon. For example, they do decrease the biases. So for example, let's say you and I were interviewers for a role. So we have our own interviews based on our assigned competencies and we ask our questions. And then of course we should come together and agree on like which one we will select, right? So what do they do to, because I can influence you, you can influence my decision because you know... Usually what we see in this type of callib, we call calibration meetings. Calibration meeting, and personalities also matter a lot. If there's a dominant personality in the calibration meeting, say, oh, this person has done that, this, I really like him or her, we need to go for that. And then that person influencing others on the decision. So that's why they said, everyone build, put their own inputs on evaluation for each candidate to the system. without seeing other interviewers comments. So as soon as you put your comments there and then you submit and then you can see others. So then it brings a little bit more objective view without really listening from each other. So this type of approaches really can help. At the end, of course, the final decision we have to discuss. I mean, there is still that process that we need to go through, but at least this helps to, you know, they decrease a little bit bias in the process. Also some systems, for example, chop the CV and remove the names, pictures from the resumes for you to have more objective view, looking at purely experience and education qualifications, because that could also create bias, where the person is, profile picture. I keep hearing from people that, I saw that person's LinkedIn profile picture. It's awful. They actually got the picture from a wedding and that's not professional. And just because of that, they eliminate the candidates for a while. So this is bias. So we need to really think about, and at least, I mean, it's not possible to eliminate all biases, but at least we can increase the awareness. I think the recruitment process is a really critical process from that sense. Diego Calligaro (17:08) And then can you a story about the time in which you had a perfect candidate in front of you and you really were sure that this person was the perfect fit but then it turned out to be the wrong one down the road. Serap Zel (17:24) Yeah. So I'm sure there were many cases like that. think, I don't remember exactly one story, but I, I, happened a couple of times that when we, for example, I did my interview and other interviewers did their interviews, but maybe I missed that to ask a few questions or the other interviewers ask a few questions. They really like the candidate's answer on the questions that they ask, but as they missed. couple of really important questions in their interviews, they were not able to get data or answer from the candidate from those perspectives. So then you have like, like you can't really have the full picture about the candidate. So it is really hard that I see because you have about one hour, sometimes you extend the one and a half hour if you have a lot to discuss, but still is quite limited time. That's how I felt as well that I need to. always get prepared for the interview, preparing my end questions and without missing really important ones because we are dealing with many different things, right? So when you go to a job interview, you finish the other meetings, you had probably back to back meetings and your mind is already busy with other priorities. So I always try to have at least like five, 10 minutes block in my calendar before the interview, just to prepare myself and review my questions. to not miss any important points in the job interviews, which is responsibility as well, like because you are deciding or you are contributing to the decision for the one person's career. And of course the person also choose that company or not, but I think that's a responsibility. That's how I look at the recruitment. Diego Calligaro (19:06) It's very interesting. not only looking outwards, like what I'm going to receive, what questions should I ask, but also looking inwards. You're saying like, looking, am I ready to get these answers? Am I have a clean mind or do we have any specific biases or am I actually can look at this person objectively? Yeah. Serap Zel (19:27) Exactly. And also I want to add one more thing to that. Sometimes I have that type of biases as well. And I see on other people too, for example, you receive a candidate from your network with a very positive reference and they say that, he or she worked on that company, this company and achieved that much and you really need to meet and et cetera. So when you meet the person, sometimes you don't see that energy or like hunger to move to something new. And of course the person might be a really great, but if the person doesn't have that motivation, passion, I don't know, energy to move to the next stage, then it is not a good candidate for you, right? So that's why, I mean, you need to check. mean, of course you need to ask right questions, et cetera, but I think we need to check that as well, especially for leadership roles, which I see it's much more critical because you are influencing other people. and you are creating followers, right, in the organization or outside of the organization with other stakeholders. So therefore we need to assess candidates from different angles as well. Diego Calligaro (20:32) What do you see like the main trait that the person should have that it really goes like cross vertical and also in from different roles that everybody like the right kind of should have? Serap Zel (20:44) I would say two things. One is curiosity. If the person is really eager to learn, ask right questions, really curious about like how we do things, do things, or how we can change things, or how do they do it? Why don't we do it? know, asking that right questions and having this curious mindset is I think number one thing across all the roles that we are hiring for. And the second thing is resilience. So especially in today's world. Things are changing so fast. And if you are sticking to something too long, you are losing the game. So you have to adapt, you have to change. And you need to have that. I mean, you don't, you shouldn't have the resistance to change. So that resilience is somehow embedded inside on people. I mean, if you, whether you have it or not, you can understand from again, past experience, how you approach, et cetera. I mean, these are the two. Things that I see really important, but also it's hard to measure like in the job interviews. That's why we need to ask like what happened? Give me an example. How did you do it? How did you feel it? What did you learn? Those types of questions are really important to assess those two things. Diego Calligaro (21:53) Yeah, indeed. then an important part that you touched before is really attracting as well the talents. There's a lot of competition among companies, small ones competing against large multinational for very competitive roles as well. What would you say are the best practices or like what the person, what the CEO should do to really make their company most attractive as possible? Serap Zel (22:20) Yeah, that's a million dollar question. So yeah, first of all, that employer branding is really important. So you can have a great vision as company and you have ambitious plans and you are on the right trajectory to do that as well. But if other people don't know about it, they don't get excited. I think startup CEOs or CEOs in general or founders should share more stories on social media platforms or different events. So I think they need to be more active in as a brand ambassadors, like how the work life is in that companies, how others employees are feeling. And maybe there can be some interviews with a few employees. So we need to give a sense what's happening in this company and why they should choose this company. Because everyone is online in today's world, right? So everyone is checking social media channels, especially before they are candidates as well, before they come to the interview, they always check the company's website, what they did, latest posts about the news, the company news as well. So it's important to put those messages there and really increasing the transparency and visibility of the company. I think that's the number one thing. And the other thing. I think making the right decisions, like the right people decisions from the beginning. Because what we have seen at Optif for example, a couple of companies that we worked in Europe and they had some wrong decisions in the past, which happens, right? I mean, there are, there's not only like success examples, failure examples as well. And we learn and grow from there. However, those companies, for example, that we've worked together. They had lots of changes in the leadership team, some terminations, some people left, et cetera. So those news are spreaded into the markets fast. And then the people who we reach out for potential roles, leadership roles, and the companies and say, you know, that company I heard about the rumors and news, I saw the news, probably the leadership decisions are, you know, not really supportive for me. And I don't, I don't feel that's the right fit. So we need to manage this type of things and we need to reassure the candidates that the things change. We always tell this story because this happens as well in the market, right? Or in the businesses. So that part is important, like how you manage the communication as well in the markets, like on the news, on the posts, how you, you know, like do the crisis management a little bit in a nicer and better way is also attracting how you attract talent later. Diego Calligaro (25:00) And then I guess this is the principle, our pillar for the size of companies, but also the role of HR is evolving during the life cycle of a company. And how do you think like this role evolves from a company that's really like a few employees with the founder that is acting as the HR department up to a multinational? What should be the steps and how this department should grow? Serap Zel (25:28) So HR definitely when the company is really small, of course it becomes more like a bit operational, right? It starts operational. Like we have to hire this, this, this people. We need to rent an office and we need to bring laptops, et cetera. I mean, it starts with a really hands-on job in this type of environment. However, as the company is built like teams together and maybe grow like more than 10, 15 people, then... there's a big growth trajectory as well and the companies then of course they need to find a little bit more business partner type of HR or they need to evolve their HR to that type of role because as an HR you need to build some processes now as the number of people growing. And firstly, you need to understand the business strategy. Okay, where we are going as business. So for those business strategy, what are the skillset that you need in the company? Do I have those skillset? Who they are? Where they are? Are they... like the A players are in the A positions, like critical roles. Sometimes what I see that the HR sometimes or the leaders are not aware that they are wasting the talent of some really great talent in non-impactful jobs. So you really need to bring your top talent into the right, critical roles to unlock the potential of the person and get the full benefits of having that type of person in the company. So I think HR should of course, and mentor, advise to the leadership team and the business leaders how to manage this, you know, parts in the organization. So you need to have a little bit strategic mindset when you scale up, especially in the company from HR perspective. So the HR is really like a business partner, should be a business partner. But of course, I mean, you need to have the right talent in place to have that type of experience in the past or have passion to do that. And a commercial mindset, business mindset is really important in HR. So yeah, those are the things I think evolving as the company is growing from HR perspective. Diego Calligaro (27:31) You've been mentioning a lot about leadership here and there's a lot of talk about leadership, leadership development. You've been running so many programs as well about leadership development in the past. What is leadership and leadership development? Serap Zel (27:48) Yeah, leadership, there's no formula for leadership. That's what I can say because first of all, I mean, there are lots of different books, different podcasts. I mean, we are listening, of course we are getting inspired about leadership, but I think creating that type of vision and the follower. to come with you, that's the leadership basically. I mean, any form, it can be business form, social form and NGO type of leadership as well. mean, anything, when you have a good cause and the purpose and the mission, of course you create that and you go together. But every company has different leadership styles as well. I mean, some companies are so aggressive. They, and where they are in the curves and the, like if they are in the start point, of course they need, they need to... grow fast and they need to move fast. They need different types of leadership. But when you go a little bit, maybe scale up phase, you need more strategic thinkers or systemic thinkers in your leadership team to make that scale up and bring processes, structure in place. And when you come to more like a global company, then you need global people like who manage different regions, mind, like complexities, because when you're operating at the global level, Definitely there is more complexity in terms of legal regulations or economical regulations in each country. So that's why leadership form, that's why I say there's no one single formula for the leadership. So from companies perspective, I think we need to understand what type of leaders do they need in each stage. And it's also evolving all the time. When I meet startup CEOs, for example, sometimes they say, you know, I have CCO in my team. And he was really great at the beginning that we were like friends and started this business together. So, but now they come to scale up point, but that CCO is not the right person to manage that scale up. So then there's a little bit emotional connection as well that, we build a business together, but they need to now do maybe a difficult decision to... Maybe it's separate the roles, et cetera. So these are the challenges also we face in the leadership journeys. So from that sense, I think understanding where we are in the leadership and needs and the style, then of course you can understand, okay, how we can develop further, how we can help those leaders to shift their mindset to the next stage based on our business vision strategy, where we are going. I think that development should be really customizable. and adjustable based on those needs and evolving needs of businesses. Diego Calligaro (30:26) And when do you think are those key points? I guess it's difficult to point the right time, but when do you think like a person should be, should recognize that this individual is not anymore the right fit for that company? Serap Zel (30:45) Yeah, I think definitely that when that time comes, you started to get some signals from your observation, of course, but also from the organization. So you can see that there is a missed deadlines, for example, easy thing to notice, or you see some feedback from the team members or other teams about the person we want to. We wanted to do this project, but there's a bit resistance or we are delaying the process because of that, that, that. So you start to receive some feedback and you need to listen to that feedback as well, of course. And there's still bias parts on that. Of course, you shouldn't listen only one person, right? So you need to get feedback from different people, not only like, like an investigator type of thing, but you can ask right questions in different meetings or different events, et cetera. get that sense. think collecting those insights and being aware of those insights and being open to those insights, I think is the first step. And then I think talking to the person as well. I mean, I had also in my team, for example, I mean, we are in recruitment, right? So I have recruiters mostly in my team. When I had one recruiters, a very senior recruiter as well, a sort of senior person, but in the recruiting, not senior, like she was an HR person mostly. And when she started to work with us and at the beginning she was so excited, this is really great, et cetera. But after some time she. I noticed that she was not doing well and she was a little bit silent and I was mostly like asking questions, trying to open her up, but I felt like something wrong, like the energy level, et and the interaction with the team as well. Then, for example, I wanted to have an open conversation with the person directly. So I said, I was going for you, like, because she was around like third, fourth month at that time, she was quite relatively new. I think having this type of open conversation really helpful as well. Because after the conversation, what we learned that, I mean, both of us discovered that, maybe recruitment is not the right path for her. And she was more interested and her skills probably were more suitable for trainer type of job, like learning development type of job, which is totally fine. And I said, I can help you. I mean, you are in the right place. I can help you to find that type of job as well. But I think having this type of conversation really opened both of us. to find the right solution for this because I totally believe that every person should work in their best possible jobs, which they can use their skills and potential. So that, because I know how it feels, like you feel so excited and it feels like a dream job when you are in that type of role. Diego Calligaro (33:24) Okay, indeed. Thanks a lot for sharing Sarah. There's also another important area when it comes to share, which is all the part of diversity and inclusion. You know very well that this is a very important part. would like to maybe to understand from you, maybe if you have a story to share with us regarding this diversity and inclusion to share why it's important and how you, what you learn about this as well. Serap Zel (33:53) Yeah, no, I'm so passionate about the diversity and inclusion part. So I was lucky that I was able to work in very international environments and with lots of different nationalities, which I truly enjoy exploring different cultures and sometimes in a positive way, sometimes in a negative way, like you need to, because every culture, every... personality differ. I'm so much open-minded from that sense to learn. And one of the story that I can share that when I was the regional HR leader in one of the global company that I worked in the past and I was part of the leadership team and we were 12 people in total and we had the managing director for the region. We were all reporting to him and in our team, had eight different nationalities, although we were like small number of people and we had nationalities from like... Europe and even Australia, New Zealand and the US and like it was really mixed. And this from diversity perspective, I think it was really great because when we have offsite meetings or weekly meetings, et cetera, I was really feeling so much energy in the room, like the different ideas, different perspectives, different questions as well that you say, Hmm, you know, I didn't think about that before. type of aha moments that we had many times, but the leaders that we were working with, he was not so much like, patience in waiting for that process that we were discussing, debating, et cetera. And he was usually saying that, okay, guys, you know, if you don't really agree on something that I'll decide and go for it. And we were... at the middle of that debate, but he was always like cutting us. And after some time, I think this created that this engagement in all of us to contribute like, okay, if you decide at the end, why do you ask us that type of feeling that we have? so there were really negative feedback. And I was an HR person. You can imagine everyone was coming to me and talking to me. He did that. He was saying to me that because he had also a little bit challenge in the individual meetings as well, like shutting off people on the ideas. So this example really is, it was a kind of learning for me as well that you can bring all the greats, talents, like different cultures, nationalities, mindset together in one room. That's a one big step as well. It's not easy to do that as well, to bring all those people together. But, but inclusion part, as you mentioned, like is also very critical if you can't really get out of those... like brains and interact with them and bringing the output of those conversations, collaboration, then the inclusion is not there. I mean, you can't really use that potential in the right way. So the leadership also is really important and coming into play and creating that safe environment for every diverse ideas to interact with each other and come to a conclusion basically all together as a team, which is hard to think as I said to do. But the right mindset is really critical. So regarding diversity inclusion, also really like one of the quotes of, I think Netflix diversity VP said that diversity means like, you invite someone to dance party. Like you invite them, different people, but inclusion is like, you are inviting person to dance on the stage. So you actually really get those people and enjoy, you know, like being themselves like. without really thinking more or creating that trust environment is really critical. So I really like that quote and it always reminds me like how I should behave as well as leader in my team, in my stakeholders to create that inclusive environment for them. Diego Calligaro (37:45) Yeah. So it's a challenging topic to deal with, but the rewards are very high when you bring a lot of diverse people together. Serap Zel (37:55) That's a challenge as well. I too high diversity, managing that too high diversity is also a bit challenge. I mean, it's not an easy thing. It requires a lot of leadership who has experience in working with different cultures. Diego Calligaro (38:08) Yeah. And touching a parallel topic here. So breaking barriers in business, tech, it's always very challenging, especially for women as well in tech. could you share with us maybe a story or tell us about some obstacles that you had in the past because of your gender and how you, what you learned and how you overcome these obstacles. Serap Zel (38:34) Yeah, earlier in my career, I was always like the only woman in the leadership teams or the youngest one in the leadership teams. So I felt a little bit like overwhelmed time to time with those male dominated environments. Because to stand your voice out there, sometimes you receive a lot of judgements as well. So you have to stay strong and you have to keep doing what you do and standing out of that crowd. I think that was a bit like a... learning curve for me at the beginning of my career. But after that, I think you come to a point that you have to focus on your skillset instead of comparing yourself as a woman to other men or other women as well. mean, even you stop comparing yourself with others, you really become your authentic self and You don't really see challenges much more, but more like opportunities, like how I can interact with them, how I can cooperate with them. So I think that comparison part definitely is, or like listening a lot of people's ideas about you, your career trajectory, etc. That becomes also a little bit, creating bias on your skills. say, yeah, but others don't believe in me, so I shouldn't believe in myself too. But that's not the case. I mean, you have to, first of all, look at inside of you. And then focus on that and continue like that. I think sometimes as women leaders, we need to just stop listening to other negative voices around us. Just believe in ourselves and move forward because I think that brings us success. And the second thing, of course, I face challenges as well, especially after building the family, having kids and you have, you're increasing your number of roles. You become, not only become daughters or like sister, et cetera, or like a business woman. But now you become a wife and mom, and of course you have maybe elderly mother and father as well that you have to still think about them and support them. So you have to juggle between all those priorities while you are still at the really exciting times of your careers. I mean, you have to dedicate your time on the areas that you are passionate in. So that part, I still face challenge. The challenge doesn't stop. But I think the important thing here is to really prioritize what you need to do. So I keep more questions about that to myself every day. Okay. What is my calendar today? That's the first thing that I do in every morning when I wake up, I say, okay, how many meetings I have? Should I? make a preparation for each any, but then I always put some time for myself. Self-care is also really important, especially in busy lives of the women, probably like me or others. I think we need to do self-care. We need to acknowledge our skills, strengths, and as well as supporting other women also really helpful. Like I'm so inspired coming together with other female. founders as well, and we have a little communities in Dubai as well, but also globally that I interact with them. That is so inspiring that, I mean, this can be done. I mean, as I said, you know, not focusing on challenges, but opportunities like what we can achieve together. And not only females, by the way, I mean, I have really good male founders as well that I really interact with. But I think this ecosystem that you create around you, so how you like to be energized inspired for just. listening to other people and hella negative talks. this is so difficult for you to do it and etc. So you have to stop listening though. Diego Calligaro (42:07) And then so a lot of advice as well for women in this case and what about maybe advice even for men to be more aware about the needs and challenges of women leadership. Serap Zel (42:19) Yeah, exactly. I think definitely we are together on this, right? So it shouldn't be only I see on companies, they create like woman networks, women supportive groups, et cetera. But we have to include male to that. I mean, we are together. We are not living in a different planet, right? So at the end, we have like spouses, fathers, and male friends around us. So I think that's the part that should be changed and we have to be more inclusive from that sense. And the second thing, I think the male leaders should be aware that at least should drive the recruitment processes, especially from recruitment perspective. That's what I keep hearing from them that especially in global companies, they said, you know, probably I will not be selected for the next role because our company has very diversity, like high diversity targets. They would like to bring female leaders into those positions. So. That creates a little bit like negative perception on male leaders as well, that they might not have the right opportunities to grow. I think we shouldn't create that type of perception in the recruitment process. We should focus on skill sets and strengths of the person, what the person brings to the role. If that person, that the right skill set is on a female candidate, then it's fine. But if it's a male candidate that we have to go for it. So I think with that type of objective view is really critical. And as well as I think, yeah, we need to invite them to all initiatives, projects and share more. Because if you don't share what your expectations or what you are feeling, how others will know, right? So we have to increase those types of communication channels internally and externally. I think in our system, some companies are just focusing internally as well. I think that there is a bigger ecosystem. don't we interact and bring other people inside for the inspiration for not only female, but male leaders as well. So I think we need to be more open as companies and like individuals. Diego Calligaro (44:17) Regarding this, one person once told me that in order to attract more women as well to specific roles, because many times even in tech it's also difficult to hire women because there are not that many with that type of skills as well, just because of the type of industry. This person told us that essentially to attract more women. What worked for him was also to lower the level of skills required because what happens is that many times the male tend to accept jobs that are above their skill while a woman will never apply for a job that doesn't exactly match their, of course, it's a general statement, but it helped in terms of Recruiting and I don't know what was your take on this? Serap Zel (45:11) Definitely. That's a kind of scientific research result as well. I agree that it shouldn't be, I mean, we shouldn't be generalizing this. I mean, there are also female candidates that they jump on the opportunity quickly, but yeah, that's a fair point. I see that happens. Then I also interact with female and male candidates. And I think from a company's perspective, they should definitely look at the, especially in the recruitment process, the job descriptions, wordings as well. Because sometimes not only for gender, but even for the age that, know, when we talk about diversity, it includes everything, right? So that should be more gender friendly, more like seniority friendly type of wordings that we should use. I think we can definitely get help from the technology as well that is really reviewing and adjusting that gender neutral type of approach and the job description, because that's a start point. When the candidate sees your job description is well prepared and it is maybe mentioning a little bit about the parental leaves as well that you have in the company, flexible work hours, if there's any hybrids set up, et cetera. So why don't we mention about those? just sometimes on the job descriptions, we focus on only technical part and the candidate requirements, that's it. But let's add benefits part as well. So why? Should that candidate work for you? So everyone is asking, what is in it for me? Right? So that's the main question that we should keep always in mind when we prepare like a structured, well-prepared job descriptions. That's the first step. Diego Calligaro (46:43) And you had mentioned before that, you know, organization is very important because especially in your situation, you need to juggle many different areas. And probably this got even more complicated the moment that you built your company. And I would like to step back, you know, on that day in which you decided to build the company. So how was the day in which you took this decision? Serap Zel (47:08) Yeah, I think of course that decision doesn't happen over time, overnight. So it prepares you to take that decision. But I think I had really like fast track career trajectory. So I have lived and worked in four different countries in like, I'm in the fifth, but during my corporate career, four different countries for 10 years and global companies really demanding jobs. And I learned a lot, but. I didn't really have time to even do self-reflection. had PhD and I was, I guess I was ambitious as well to, you know, get all those learnings quickly from different parts of the world, the industries and the roles. But at some point I said, okay, I need to do something else because I felt that I'm not in the right job to continue in my life. So like three circles that I always think. Whether I really like the job, I love what I do or whether I'm good at, or if I'm making money from that, three criterias. When I look at that, I was making money, but I was not really, I was using my skills as well, but not fully. But also I was not really like passionate about what I do at that time. Because I was not seeing the impact on people. I really like to see the results. Like that motivates me. So then I come to that decision that I actually resigned from Facebook, which was a really great company. I still keep in touch with my ex-colleagues, but I came to that point that I need to build something new and it was so refreshing, so energizing for me, of course. But at the same time, of course, a bit scary too. Like you don't have on the next month, you don't have any paycheck and benefits that you feel and you are in comfort zone, you know, work to work like from eight to five, six. Sometimes of course you are. always extending, but you know, know, your play area, like in your comfort zone. So pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, of course, is a challenging thing to do, but I was so energized. don't know. I felt so happy. I didn't really focus on so much like scary things. I felt, you know, I can make it work because I was working really hard already for other companies. So now I'm working for my own company. I should have to make it work. So that's the feeling that I had, but of course, I think the relationships matter a lot. That's what I learned along this journey. My past friends and ex-colleagues, et cetera, really helped me to get some new projects. And that was like a starting point in my company. And then I think when you are in your very, very, you are in car... corporate roles, you don't really understand the value of those relationships. When you go out of the corporate world, you really value at that time. But the honest relationships, like benefits focused relationships. But then I got a really nice project, like Santa, to kick off my company, create some capital and then build a team. Yeah, I'm, course I'm in the right role because I think for me, the best job ever is this like recruitment job. are, you know, as a team now we have 16 people and we are connecting people truly globally. Like we have Playstyle and in 52 different countries since 2021 and we interact with many different cultures. We talk about diversity. We feel it every day through our clients, candidates, and then you make the right move, match, and then you see the results. That's how I'm motivated as well. And everyone is happy at the end. Business is really happy having the right talent in place. And the talent is always moving for better opportunities. No one is changing job for a worse opportunity, right? So then they are happy and my team is really happy. Well, that's the dream job. Diego Calligaro (50:56) Thanks a lot for sharing. Let me change a bit the topic and moving more on the technology. So I would like to discuss this very important point as well. Tell us how technology is really impacting currently. Char, your activity, especially when it comes to hiring and how you see it evolving. Serap Zel (51:14) Yeah, technology is definitely bread and butter in today's world for HR. mean, for recruitment specifically, I can't tell. think technology, I mean, there's always that fear like AI will take off my job. of course, AI will take some part of our jobs. I mean, should take it as well. to improve our processes efficiency. For example, AI especially that are used very much on the sourcing part of the candidates. The current AI tools that we use, they are sourcing a lot of different sources and bringing the right talent to us. So which really helps us to get those people on our list on the first stage. But of course, we still need human touch. We need to talk to those people and we need to ask those... questions that we talked and assessing the answers because we can't really leave that job to the technology because AI should be trained by the past data. And especially probably you saw on the news that many companies now notice that there is bias in their AI algorithm in the recruitment. some of their algorithms select more females than male or male to female or like also seniority wise, they tend to select more senior people. or junior people, et cetera. So we can't really rely on 100 % on the assessing people through technology. And some companies using video interviews, recorded video interviews, AI then assessing the answers and bringing a kind of report about the candidate profile. But that's also mostly for the junior level recruitments, which there is less complexity about the job role and then the person has less experience. So then it may help you because usually companies receive like thousands of applicants, they have to use some technology, right, to screen those candidates correctly. But I mean, especially as I said, AI is taking sourcing parts and helping us to bring the right talent, but assessing parts still we need some human touch. Although right now, for example, we are using a VR assessment as well that it helps us to, for the candidates, they get the VR glass and they can see different scenarios on the VR. They interact with the scenario that of course, VR is measuring all the data points about their decisions, speed and communication style as well. are different scenarios, like a gamification type of. Diego Calligaro (53:36) Can you give us an example specific? Serap Zel (53:39) Yes, for example, let's say you would like to assess candidates decision-making and cognitive skills like analytical skill. So the scenario, the VR scenario puts you in a control tower in the airport. So you have to decide, of course, there's like an onboarding part first, like you look at your hands, you look at the environment, where I am, and it explains the tasks to you that you need to do. Then you give thumbs up, then the assessment starts. Then for example, there are different planes landing at the similar times. You need to decide which one you need to land first based on their fuel ratio, for example. If the fuel ratio is low, then you need to decide that one should land first. But sometimes there are, the scenario is increasing the complexity. There are more planes coming very similar times. They are from different countries. So you have to remember which one that you need to select first. But while you are focusing on that, there's another task coming up and you have to solve that at the same time. Then the system measures every action that you do, every decision that you do. And also it actually even measures the body temperature, like if you are sweating, if your heartbeat is increasing and how you manage stress, it can even get that type of data. It is really like a new technology. I mean, this is... Very, very new. And this helps, of course, companies to get an additional data point. Of course, you don't decide based on the VR assessment of the person to hire the person or not. You still need to have interviews. You can use this type of assessment. There are personality assessments, different types of assessments that you can use. That's an additional data point. And then you make your final decision, like which one you want to work with. But yeah, technology definitely is helping a lot in today's world. But I think we need to think about like where we need to use, like how we need to use, how this will impact our decisions. So you need a little bit like, you know, structural analysis. And of course, it's at this investment too. I mean, these systems are not cheap, so you need to select the right system. Diego Calligaro (55:53) There's a lot of focus from what I understand as well in the source in part, which is the part that you can automate most. And it looks like the decision part is still of course in the human hands. And regarding the source in part, so you've been speaking significantly regarding how AI as well can automate this part as well as also when it comes to screening curriculums, Most of that part. And what about the people applying for the jobs? How technology helps them in that case? Serap Zel (56:26) Yes, yeah, definitely technology helps them as well. So for example, you have a resume, you prepared a couple of years ago or maybe more years ago, but you want to polish it up and there are lots of ways that you can polish quickly. And of course you can use Chat Chippity, but as well as there are different platforms which you upload your CV and just they edit more details. They ask some questions to you as well, like what are the things that you want to highlight in your resume? But you can do that easily, for example. And I think more and more candidates are using this type of technologies at the moment to polish up their CVs because the systems, recruitment systems have that type of AI background. Most of them have AI background. So when you, they apply with their resume, resume is screened by AI and it shows us usually like the percentage of the match between. keywords in the job description and the CVs keywords and the companies, we don't have that type of rule, but sometimes companies put like, if the match is less than 70 % or 80, 85 % I don't want to see those candidates on my short list or long list. So then those candidates profiles are not even seen by a human being, human recruiter. So it's automatically disqualified. So then this actually increases the importance. of the resume preparation and there are lots of technologies helping us on that. So why don't we use it? I think from candidates perspective. And you can also get prepared as a candidate for your upcoming interview. You can again, like other interviewers, I gave the same tip, right? So you can use chat GPT as well. Like you can put the job description and look at like which questions I can ask the candidates as an interviewer or as a candidate, like what are the possible questions that I can. received from interviewer and how should I get prepared for that? And the problem is that, of course, these are the things that are really helpful, but you should still be like authentic self. Like you shouldn't be like a copy paste person or just, you know, using those answers each time. You need to add your stories. You need to add your past experience, like examples, like what you have done, what was the result, what are your learnings, et cetera. Those are the things you should still bring from your own experience, but technology is helping you to think about what are the things that can be asked or assessed during the interview process. I think there's still that human touch, human brain is needed. But yeah, as we said, technology is an enabler for the success. Diego Calligaro (59:07) Essentially, we're going to be able to automate a lot of this initial part from both sides. it looks like a company will receive thousands of applications from potentially thousands of AI generated curriculum. And from the other side, there's the company screening automatically through AI, all this AI generated content. And like in all this world of everything automated, but essentially you are not really screening real people's skills and background, but just AI content. What's the paradox here? what do you, what's the problem? Serap Zel (59:47) Yeah, that's happening right now. So we can, we can really understand, of course. I mean, let me look at the, mean, as an experienced recruiter and in our team, we can look at the resume and understand if it's coming from AI or not. mean, based on the, like the wordings and the structure for, even the formats are quite similar to each other. But I think our role is getting much more important in that sense, because we have to talk to those people. I mean, we shouldn't really... say that, this prepared by AI, so let's get rid of the CB. No, maybe the person got help, of course, yes, but there's still that maybe potential person that we need to dig more and ask questions. So that human touch becomes even more important in this type of setting than you, I mean, when you look at the resume, you look really polished resume, but when you talk to person, sometimes the person also becomes really good. Of course you say, okay, that's a good match. But sometimes you say, you know, this resume doesn't really match with this profile. Then you are losing time, of course, at that point, but you have to assess, you have to ask questions. And also as the, things that I mentioned, understand the energy, motivation, et cetera, you have to talk to person. So that's why I think our job is becoming much more important as your tutors. Diego Calligaro (1:01:08) And challenging as well in a way. So you're talking about a lot of human tech. really want to find that. So what a recruiter you will need to look at because it's going to be maybe more about referrals that are going to get more importance in the future, or maybe people that are going to come to you directly. They're going to add more exposure. Like how do you see this? Serap Zel (1:01:30) Yeah, I think it really depends on the company's business and growth plans. If the company is growing steady and then of course they have to build their internal recruiting team. They have to build the not junior, I think at least mid-level seniority recruiting team because recruitment definitely needs some sort of seniority. To be able to assess other people, if you don't have your experience, how will you assess others? So you have to relate. You have to understand if the person is at that expected level or not. So I think that's the big missing thing. And then of course it requires budget, et cetera, I mean, to hire those type of a bit more senior people. But at least mid-level would be even making a good difference in the results. And if you are in that growth trajectory, of course, you need to have an internal team. And if any roles coming up, internal teams should focus on those roles and fill the roles with their efforts. And of course, with the structure systems, technology help, et cetera. But if there are some challenging roles that they are not really sure how to find it, or they don't have any expertise on that, so why... Of course, they, at that time, they can work companies like us, external head hunters to who are specialized in those areas who can help using their own network and database, cetera. Employee referral program, I'm a big fan of it. I think every company should have that type of programs for sure, because that also gives... For example, an employee brings a referral to the HR, right? Or the managers. That's a really nice sign of employee engagements. Like the person means that, like the person is happy and engaged in the company and he or she refers other people to work in the same company. And such a nice gesture. So I think also they do a little bit like first screening most of the time. I mean, not like as a recruiter, but they tell about the company to that friend. that friend is interested and the person knows a little bit about the skillset and experience of that person. If that person can make it here or not. So there is that first filter already happened. So that's a great news, I think, from a chart perspective and you don't pay anything. And sometimes companies also give some gift cards, et cetera, or like cash bonus to the employee who brings a referral, which is also a really nice gesture, I think. But. There are many companies actually hiring through the referrals as well. I think every company should have it. I mean, it's easy to establish why, why do we wait? Just start one of them immediately next week and announce to the team members and get some referrals. Of course, I think we need to encourage people to think about it. Share the opportunities internally. These are the open positions that we are hiring for at the moment. You know, a little bit like drive is needed, of course, but it's a great tool as well. So definitely looking, having internal recruiting themes, working with agencies for difficult roles or critical roles or confidential roles. I was looking at our data, like 40 % of the all executive roles that we work so far were confidential roles. The companies didn't want to approach by themselves directly. So they wanted to someone else approach to related candidates without mentioning the company name. So that's also another way that you can check. And also the third thing is employee referrals. And of course the job posting on LinkedIn, like other platforms, getting a job applications and the candidates through that way, always helpful. But it depends like how much time, how much budget you have and everything is just linked to that. Diego Calligaro (1:05:04) Sarah, thanks a lot. Just a few last questions. One piece of advice for CEOs of emerging tech companies looking to hire TopTel. Serap Zel (1:05:15) I would say that they should really think about all different options. It's an important decision to especially startup CEOs. Every person is so important decision, although maybe they are not in the leadership levels. So therefore I would say that look for all the different options and get the right talent. And also, as I mentioned earlier, think about different models as well. You don't have to hire full-time people because some really great talent. They don't want to work from nine to six. So you can't really attract them with that type of, you know, set up. So sometimes you need to be creative. That's why I think every leader should have that talent mindset. Like how can I attract the right skillset within my budget, within my time limit? What are my channels? And then go with that mindset. Diego Calligaro (1:06:06) Okay, and looking back at your career and experience, what would you have done differently? Serap Zel (1:06:11) That's a good question. It's like a good coaching question. What can I do differently? I think I would take more risks in my earlier careers and I was playing more like a safe at the beginning. Now I'm taking more risk for sure, but I would go a little bit, yeah, like different, looking at different alternatives and thinking about that and putting myself out more. Yeah, I would do that. Diego Calligaro (1:06:35) And looking at the accelerating pace of change in the world due to technologies and innovation. Share with us what's your concern about this in digital future and also what excites you most about this. Serap Zel (1:06:51) So for me, the concerning thing is that, I don't know you have that feeling, but I have always that feeling like, am I missing something? Something happening there that I'm not aware of, especially in my field. I have that concern all the time. That's why I am a member of a lot of different technological platforms. I'm looking at the news all the time and I'm checking also which technologies are introduced in my area and recruitment. I continue to look at the demos of the new technologies, et cetera. So that piece is worrying me because the speed is so fast. So we have to keep ourselves up to date every single day. So, which is also excites me because I'm not a person which I enjoy routine work and do the same thing again and again. So that's why I really enjoy also working with different industries. So we have. crypto companies that we work together or energy companies or FMCG, humanoid robots company that they do really like human robots basically. So there are different industries that they need different things and you have to be flexible to and agile to adapt. So that excites me more to be honest, to help their needs as well, talent needs. so yeah, but technologically I'm... I'm concerned a little bit like of what I'm missing, but at the same time, I'm so excited because it helps us. It helps our daily life even, not only business, but daily basis as well. Diego Calligaro (1:08:22) Thanks a lot for this fantastic conversation and definitely going to be the occasion to speak again. Serap Zel (1:08:28) The future. you so much, Diego. Thanks for having me. Bye. Diego Calligaro (1:08:32) All right. Thank you for watching this incredible interview. Leave us your comment with what you think about this episode, what you would like to discuss in the future or any guest suggestion. And remember, you can follow us on social media. You will find the description of the links. Thank you again for your time and I see you to the next episode.